poly_bear

Hello, Again...It's Been Awhile

2007-03-27T13:13:03Z

I "let" my husband have sex with another man last night and I am doing pretty damned well with it. Don't get me wrong, I think I should.

Especially since I want to sleep with other men, I damned well better be okay with it!

I believe I have finally reached the point where I am ready security-wise for the type of relationship I've wanted all my life, and that is of course (for anyone who would read this journal!) to polyamory.

And I still don't really have a definition to what kind of polyamory I am most comfortable with. I know that it isn't they type where my man, R, and I would be primary partners with secondaries that we may or may not share.

But again, I need to be clearer. I want to get to a point where it is totally and completely okay for R to have an adventure now and again with men that either I am not interested in, or with men who are not interested in either me or threeways. Now I don't want this to be a "normal" everyday event. I just don't.

I have an addictive personality and so does R. I have to strictly watch the classic things that can become addictive, and even a few that aren't classic (such as food). My ex went out of his mind with sexual activity and even became HIV+. He had some type of sex with a couple thousand times (yes, it is true!) when he was with me (in a decade).

It is my personal belief that a person has to be very strong and stable to enjoy the fruits of sexuality to that degree and not either loose their selves or that sex not become as common as changing one's sox. NOTE! This is MY opinion and I am not inviting attack from those with chips on their shoulders and who disagree with me. I am certainly interested in those with different opinions who can speak intelligently and sympathetically.

What I thought I wanted was polyfidelity. A triad in which we only had sex with each other. I also knew that there was no sane way that the sex could only be when all three of us were interested. It had to be a situation where B could be with R or X or both, R could be with B or X or both, and X could be with B or R or both. It was the only way it could possibly work.

A wonderful breakthrough, although pretty kindergarten when it comes to even thinking about being poly, is that R and I talked the other night about love in a poly relationship. We agreed that we don’t want Mr. X. when he comes along, to have a favorite. I mean, just the ego thing would have problems with that. And of course, as days, weeks, months and years pass, there will be affect ional rises and falls, but for the most part, we would not want him to have a favorite, just as one shouldn’t have a favorite among their children.

And therefore , we could not have a favorite either, even though R and I have a basis and will have more history. “Of course, Baby, “ R said. “It is the only way a triad will work.”

Big step for the man who cried when I told him that I would want to be in a triad one day. We were just dating and I said I’d been looking for a couple and was stunned that I had let myself fall for him, a single man.

So for me it is ego and jealousy, things that have NO room in any relationship, mono or poly or poly wolly doodle all day! My path since breaking up with the ex about seven or so years ago has been wonderful and arduous and eye-opening and freeing. Buddhism and Paganism and New Thought and Science of Mind (not Scientology!) have helped immensely. Books that people have recommended like The Ethical Slut has been most helpful also.

Communication is sure f*cking important, heh?!?! LOL! Boy, one can’t say that enough!

I mean, R gave me permission to have sex with this man young enough to be my son the other night (he was more than legal!). The kid was HIV+ so I was very safe, but I did fuck him. I wore a condom, so don’t ask. I got home and R was very upset and it took more than a week to really iron things out. Every time I thought it was okay, it wasn’t.

The sexual experience was very very good for me, and not just cuz it was very hot sex, and that such a young guy was SO into me! I’ve lost a lot of weight and am looking pretty darned good and feeling so much better about myself. The sex was very empowering, further helping me feel good about me. I needed the ego boost, you know? The confidence builder to push me further down my path of mental and emotional health. I left his apartment feeling strong and tall and free and SO much more. The air seemed cleaner, my eyesight clearer… I left my shirt off and my vest on and the wind against my skin was invigorating. It was almost like I was on some kind of mind expanding drug, but I am clean! And I knew in that moment I wanted R to have the same freedom. To explore and be with another man and to have that love of life, and sex, and communion with another person without me needing to be there!

SO… I am seeing that I needed to grow emotionally, spiritually, mentally. The PROBLEM was ME. My feelings of insecurity, my feelings of self worth and self love, my ego. Once I felt better about myself, and that R wouldn’t be the only one who was desired, a shift began to happen. The shift had really already began with all the spiritual work I had done, but the fact that men want me again (men that I would want, LOL) was like reaching one of those rises on a climb up a very steep mountain where you can rest a bit? And where you see that the grade, or steepness might be getting a bit easier?

The communication problem lay in the fucking. R freaked out that I fucked and HIV+ guy, safer sex or no safer sex. And that I fucked someone without him being there. It was a step we hadn’t really discussed. He thought it would be simple slap and tickle and maybe mutual hand or blowjobs, and not intercourse. AND mostly that if I had somehow became infected and passed it on to him, that he hadn’t even had the fun to go with it. Fair. All fair.

And it makes me more confidant to know that he isn’t MR SECURE as well. That he can feel sniggling bits of insecurity. He was lone child, raised by a single mother, in a tiny town where each grade level was the size of a single class when I was growing up. He is reserved and it is hard for him to let me know what is going on inside. I think he is okay with something, and he isn’t. He thinks I am okay with something, and I am NOT.

So we are dealing with that and the boi who wanted me so bad was a good step. Taught us a LOT about communication on this poly journey. And he is finally realizing that HE needs to communicate!

AND SO... Last night my man slept with another man and I am okay. There is a phantom thing going on… You know, like people missing a limb and they feel a tickle? It was almost like logic was telling me I should be jealous or insecure, but I wasn’t really. Like the habit of darker emotions that either weren’t there, or were back along the path behind me yelling at me that I really should be upset, and I did pretty good at ignoring that voice. I focused on how much I loved R and how much I being with the boi by myself and not having to worry about a third being ignored or included, and how much I enjoy being alone sexually with the guy R was with. I let the love come through and it helped so much. And that I was here with two dear friends and not home alone! LOL! (I am on vacation and seeing a friend I haven’t seen in 20 years-since I was younger than the kid I was with)

R did have sexy fun too! LOL! If there was any jealousy it was that he did something that I would have wanted to do! But NO feelings of being threatened! YEAH!

Any thoughts or advise? I’m getting there!!!!

Cross posted to etical_sluts , gay_poly and polyamory

So....Where Have All The Single Men Gone? Well, We Got One Coming Over Tonight...

2005-08-16T14:07:56Z

...not sure if it is a date or not...

We care immensely for him... I've known him for years... He was a neighbor until just two weeks ago when his ex sold the house out from under him... Or said he did. No one has taken possession.

What a long story he's been...good, bad, worrisome, joy filled, loving, mean, scatterbrained, loyal... So many things... Did I mention good in bed?

We met at least eight years ago after a snow storm. My car was buried and I fucking hate snow... I am trying to dig it out AND it won't start! I see this guy come out of the house across the street and ask for a jump and he says he is late but the guy who lives there can help me...

I check and the guy is glad to help. His name is “K” and he comes over and spends soooo much time trying to help. He can't get it started but the effort was wonderful. The friendship had already begun...

We decide (my ex and I) to have him over for dinner (with only sorta ulterior motives in mind) to thank him. We really hit it off, and have a great dinner, and then..? Amazing sex! He is gorgeous, sweet, can carry on a conversation AND he's good in bed! I mean, WOW! What’s more is that we didn’t take advantage of him. He knew what lay in store for him. It was one of the reasons he came over. Not only had the snow incident been a Good Samaritan thing, but there had been some sparks flying as well… I was too naïve and inexperienced at the gay scene to be sure…

My ex and I only had sex with him one more time (notice I said my ex and I only had sex with him one more time), but a friendship had been forged. We saw him through a lot! Highs, and lows and lows and lows and lows… He met this man that we KNEW was not for him and they were together for years… YEARS! (eight?) They broke up a couple of times and got back together and should never have been together in the first place. I mean, the lover is a devout Catholic who at one point in his life would run to the bathroom after he had gay sex, sometimes throw up (from guilt) and then sobbingly pray for forgiveness… “K” is a devout Atheist! What a combo!

Note on the Atheist thing? His unbelief in ANYTHING (let alone God)? I’ve always taken it as the lady doth protest too much. Believing in ANYTHING greater than himself burned him terribly badly, he was a victim of some heavy toxic spirituality, and he threw the baby out with the bath water…

So the years passed. “D” (the ex) told him about his cheating before ~~I caught him red-handed~~ he told me… And he told “D” that if he (“D”) didn’t tell me about it, that he (“K”) would! It may have been helped with the prompting of his lover, but he was very upset with “D.” Before “D” could come clean, I found out. He blasted me with the fact that “K” had been very supportive of his cheating and for awhile, there was a wedge between “K’s” and my friendship. Imagine my surprise when I found out this was all just one more lie. “K” had tried to be a friend to “D,” tried not to judge (like you all are being with the “W” thing?), but he was NOT happy with “D” at all!

As a matter-of-fact… Remember I told you I only cheated on “D” a couple of times? And it was at the end of the relationship? I was so hurt and while part of it was getting back at him, it was really something else entirely. It was me finally standing up for me. It was me realizing I was attractive. It was me realizing that it was bullshit that “D” was cheating because there weren’t many people attracted enough to me to make it a three-way… It was empowering… And I had sex with “K” twice! It was simple, nothing too hot and sweaty. It just sorta happened. I was learning to be comfortable with being naked. I love being naked. I am naked WHENEVER I can be… “K” is a nudist if there ever was one. So he’d come over and we’d be nude together. Not sexual. Just nude. Talk…watch TV, ect. And things were so bad with “D” and he surprised me by telling me he’d never been attracted to “D”. Not at all. (and “D” had made SURE I knew the he was the one “K” was attracted to) And over the next couple of weeks, when things were getting really horrible with me and “D”, “K” even cuddled with me a few times, held me close, stoked my hair…and that led to something I thought was sorta sweet. (these two incidents happened during one of the times he was broken up with his lover—there were not more than these two times because they got back together) We never even talked about it until the last six months or so. And these two incidents were over five years ago! But they helped me more than you can imagine!

Then, believe it or not, his lover started flirting with me! And we had a three-way! Behind “D’s” back. It wasn’t very good, his lover was WAY too self-conscious and wracked with Catholic guilt… But boy was “D” stunned when he found out! I can’t remember if it was right before the breakup or right after… He was telling me how “K” was going to choose HIM as a friend, and I should just fucking count on that. And he’d really been being mean and tearing me up inside and suddenly I got furious and said, “OH, YEAH?!?!?! You think so?!?!?!” I admitted I HAD cheated on him a couple of times and told him about “K” and “K” and his lover…

“D” was STUNNED! He was shocked, surprised, very upset, and amused. Amused because I had had the guts to fool around on him. Upset because it was with “K” AND that I’d had a three-way without him. He’s been trying to get into bed again with “K” for years, “K” had told him no…and told ME yes! And he realized that “K” had never wanted him. I told “K” and he just shrugged, “Oh, well!” I found out later “D” went to him, furious, and “K” told him the same thing. **shrug** “Oh, well. It isn’t like you are being faithful, is it?”

Anyway, more time went by. Things have gone through different incarnations. He was jobless for a couple of years. He has gone through severe depression. I think he’s been depressed the whole time I’ve known him. And we have flirted with the idea of becoming serious for years. I’ve told him more than once that in alternate universes we are lovers and he agrees… And “R” is very attracted to him and visa versa.

And one night when we were having a porch night (we do that late into the night after it has gotten dark, usually drinking cosmos or rum and cokes), “K” and I got nude. It was so nice to do that again! I’d been nude with him once before, but that is all it was. “R” came out and “caught” us, was shocked, and annoyed (why hadn’t I let him know this was going to happen so he could join us? Like that was going to happen! Shy “R”??? And on a work night?? “R” gets almost mean if he can’t get his eight hours of sleep)

And before you know it, we were all sorta kinda playing around a little bit. Nothing too serious, but I mean, there was nude groping. They’d wanted to see each other nude for a looooong time and were both happy with the results. And it was all sorta sweet and cool and neat-oh. It was all so right, nothing wrong… Very innocent. Nothing piggy/nasty, if you know what I mean…

This was after “K” and his lover finally BROKE up! This happened a couple of months ago and “K” and I have done the nude thing since and gotten a tad horny, but did nothing because “R” wasn’t there. I mean, how wonderful that neither of us let it happen. The one time I got too frisky after God knows how many pink drinks, “K” artfully kept me from doing anything I would hate myself for later. “IF something happens, “R” has to be there, at least the first time…”

But there has been so many things happening! “R” and I went to the nearly two weeks long Men’s Festival… “K” being forced to move out… Me going to my Mom’s. “K’s” niece having a baby… One thing after another conspired against us…

But tonight?

I am so trying to let “K” know that people love him and want him around. Invited him over for dinner, a movie, and cocktails. Told him if he got too drunk he could crash. He told me that his truck was in the shop and I told him I’d come get him and you could tell by his voice he was really touched. “Thank you, Ben. That is so…so sweet.” And tried to get him to go to the “Willy Wonka thing the other night with me and “W.” Maybe it was “W’s” presence that helped make sure “K” didn’t go? And then he claims that he didn’t realize that Sunday night was the night we were going to have him over for dinner, that he and his friend Brenda ALWAYS do something that night… But then said he had Tuesday night free…

Tonight.

I think it’s a date…

We certainly want him to at least SLEEP over. Cuddle. None of us have to get up too early tomorrow. “R” leaves for GenCon tomorrow, I still don’t have a job, and “K” works nights… Or at least he used to. For some reason he doesn’t work tonight and I am worried he lost his job…

Anyway, it is chicken shish kabobs, and wine, and possibly “Sin City,” which comes out today, and lots and lots of pink drinks. Porching hopefully. Nude porching? Which could lead to more? I hope so…

“K” says it has been over a year since he’s had sex. He needs some sex. What he really needs is to be made love to…

And I think that eight year old energy is in the air… We want to see him! We miss him! We haven’t seen much of him and he is depressed about the move and so are we. We want TIME with him… And I think he knows that we have a sorta of ulterior motive in mind. I think he knows that we have NO desire to take advantage of him. That he knows what could be in store for all three of us, and not just him… I think it is one of the reasons he is coming over, why he jumped in and said he had Tuesday night free…

Believe it or not, “R” had already given me permission to sleep with “K” while he was at GenCon (since he is going to be with “W” after all). But I didn’t want to even just sleep with “K” until we had all three slept together. And from experience, “K” wouldn’t allow it either… I think he is coming over tonight because he knew there was an importance in him coming over before “R” left for GenCon, whether he knows what that importance is or not…

It could be a wondrous night. A new beginning. I know it won’t hurt anything. The situation has too much background. If the sex turned out to be disastrous, we’d all be friends! I mean, “K” and I had sex behind “D”’s back! And never talked about it… If worse comes to worse, we just won’t talk about it.

But if things go well? Who knows what the future has in store?

Could this be the triad I’ve been waiting for?

There are a lots of pros and cons, for and against it… We “W” see…

And, HEY! Be Buddhist, Ben! Tonight does not exist yet, nor tomorrow. Only THIS moment! Don’t read anything into anything. Let it all be. “K” might not even show up! He might cancel… He might only want dinner. He might be shocked that we have plans to possibly, if the situations seems right, to seduce him. His anti-sex depression might have kicked in.

Let it be. What ever “W” be, “W” be. Let it unfold naturally, the way life is supposed to… What is meant to be, “W” be…

And that’s good.

“R” & "W" Go on a Trip Together & I Deal Gloriously Well With Old Issues!!!! (& take a trip myself)

2005-08-15T13:28:17Z

Were you really ready for this much honesty??

Yes, “R” and “W” are taking a trip together, without me, to GenCon for five days and four nights and yes...they will sleep together.

**takes deep breath**

I am amazed at how well I am dealing with this...and “R” is tricked by it. Just because I am dealing pretty damned well doesn't mean I am not feeling a tad insecure and a good bit envious as well.

I may never ever get to sleep with our lover. And I mean sleep. Fall asleep all cuddled with him. And “R” will get to for several nights...

...and in keeping honest with us, "W" has told us (“R”) that he intends to go to a hot leather/levi bar one night and see if he can score and/or wants to meet with a man he sees once a year when he heads off to this convention.

And we are dealing quite well it that. It actually helps. I mean, we aren't celebrating and buying helium balloons... But the point is that it keeps us in check and reminds us of what the real story is here. We don't fantasize that he will one day leave his husband for us. And while our fairy tale fantasies might include him doing just that... (with my fantasies, it is only after he and his husband BOTH realize they should no longer me lovers and part amicably) ...

He cheats on his husband, he would never ever be able to be honest with us. Once a cheater, always a cheater...

Or let me be more complete here...

I DID cheat on my ex, “D,” once or thrice. But this was after at least eight years, three of which I knew he was cheating at every single opportunity he had. This was after horror, and grief, and fighting, and dozens and dozens of broken promises... This was after careless behavior, of leaving evidence around, flaunting his promiscuity and breaking of more promises...

It was like, for some fucking reason, I had to... Not get back at “D”... But do something for MYSELF! Does that make ANY sense? I don't think it was that I wanted to bring myself down to his level... I don't know after all this time... Was it that, "well, he's doing it, I might as well..." ?

It was more of an empowerment kind of thing... And it did empower me.

There was this cowboy who would come in from Texas once a year for a week or so to take extra nursing classes, which made him a more valuable employee and gave him raises. Anyway, “D” and I had played with him a few times and it was WAY fucking hot sex. I mean dynamic! Wild, off the wall stuff! It would kill you if sex was like this all the time! **blush**

And the last time we saw him, he had the opportunity to let me know that I was the one he was into!!!! I couldn't believe it. “D” had made it clear that one of the major reasons he cheated on me was that men wanted him and not me, and he didn't want to miss the opportunities. Now I had passes up a few, but a big part of his abuse was that he really made me feel that HE was the hot one amongst us, that he was doing me a favor or some fucking thing by including me in three-ways...

SO I stunned that the cowboy wanted me... But! But! I am not nearly as good looking as “D” and FAT! And he tells me that I am MUCH better looking than “D,” and “D” is too skinny and that I am not FAT and that some men like a little meat on their men...

So the next time he came to town...

...I did it. I cheated on him. And while I felt a little bit guilty, two wrongs do not make a right, I felt mostly FABULOUS! I mean, the two ladies who taught me Tarot and astrology covered for me!

And I cheated twice with our neighbor friend (whom you will hear more about soon), and once with him AND his lover...

“D” didn't find out until we were nearly over. It pissed him off!

But he at least had the grace to then shake his head, smile, and say, "Well, good for you!"

So, yes, “R” will sleep with "W" and of course, they will do more than sleep. And that is okay. It has to be. These are things I am doing to make myself sane, believe it or not.

I have tried and tried and tried to get over “D” and what he did and in FIVE years I haven't really truly done so. Time has made it easier... Layers of sediment are settling over that part of my life. But it rears up time and again...

Buddhism teaches you to embrace your fears and hurts. And by doing things like “R” and I have been doing, to my total SHOCK, it is helping! I mean, fucking immensely!

Because if we can play together and not cheat... If we can actually give each other permission to play with someone on our own, without the other there. If that can EVEN include someone we ourselves will never get to play with... If all this can happen AND it is appreciated and it is fun and (this is the important part) Does Not Lead to Cheating...

Then it once and for all proves that...

“R” IS NOT “D”!

I had really come to believe that the ONLY way love could work is if we were totally and completely monogamous... And folks... I still felt cheated! Not cheated ON, but cheated. I knew I was missing something glorious!

See, “D” and I played together and I thought it was glorious. It was like making love to “D” with another man's body/cock... I don't know how to explain it... I'd be in a three-way with my lover and see him doing something to someone else and it made my heart expand!!! Not only was it hot, but I'd fall in lover with him again! That we could trust each other SO much that we could have sex with other men! Because people want other people besides their lovers (I was going to say men want other people besides their lovers but what a sexist thing to say). Most people, at least that is what our culture says, do NOT have sex with anyone else... But that we could love each other so much that we COULD feel free to have sex with others and enjoy that glorious part of life meant more to me than anything...

It was a part of what made the first five years with “D” some of the very best years of my life... I thought all we were was LOVE!

And once in awhile, we would give each other permission to play alone!

The first time I had sex with someone when “D” wasn't there... Why I truly fell much more deeply in love with “D” WHILE I had sex with this other man! His smiling face flashed through my mind all through the sex. I couldn't believe that I had such love that I could not only have my cake and eat it too, but I could have somebody else's cake as well!

Only to find out that all this WASN'T what I thought it was. Only to find out that “D” cheated at every opportunity. That he gave me permission and then did what ever he wanted. That our whole relationship was based on lies and deceit...

Then I met “R”. And it was wonderful.

And I found out I WANTED other men. OH the shit and turmoil I went through because of it! We did one little sexual thing and I was wracked with worry over it...I thought I was as slimy as “D.” Then over a year later, we played with someone and it was SO hot and I was wracked with guilt and worry over it...

And finally, I have realized that what I THOUGHT I had with “D” was wonderful. Just because it wasn't real for him, just because he was being deceitful, didn't mean it wasn't - real - for - ME!

And that “R” isn't “D!” And what is more...

....I am not “D!”

We are not stepping into the abyss and preparing to ruin our relationship by giving each other what I thought I had with “D.” “D” fucked it up! We are not “D!!!”

And it is bringing us closer together! “R” is actually communicating! And we are having some fucking fun as well!

SO! “R” is going to sleep with "W."

And I am heading to Springfield and I am going to spend a few days with some people with the men I camp with once a year and would usually only get to see once a year. What's more, I'll be spending a couple of nights with a man I think is WAY hot and is the one man I've slept with without “R” being there. I was so nervous and scared it was only so-so the first time. “R” was WAY sad that it was only so-so. He had a fucking wonderful adventure and he wants me to have a great one too! YES!

So if this man is willing, I am going to blow him away with some fantastic lovin' this weekend!

AND if nothing happens? That will be wonderful as well, because I will be with friends...

Yes, embracing my fears, rolling around in them, taking chances (scary ones) and allowing myself to finally totally see that “R” is NOT “D” has done more to heal me than anything has in the last five years... I've truly healed more in the last month than I have in the last year or more...

I do not know what the future holds... Who does? Will we have an open relationship? Will we return to monogamy? Will we become a triad and be totally faithful to each other?

Who knows?

What counts is that I am learning to trust again. I just needed some fire to do so... And what's more, is that I know I am trusted. And that is pretty awesome...

I Saw Our Lover Tonight...

2005-08-14T03:47:58Z

...we spent the evening at a friend's house who knows all about us and they are all quite supportive, so that is good. My husband, "R," is out of town. "W" and I left and he didn't come in to play... Guess it was a tad late, but I wish he'd come in anyway. He and "R" are going to a gaming convention next week and will be gone 5 days and 4 nights and will get to do what I probably will never get to do with "W" and that is to sleep together...

I am dealing fairly well with that, but at the same time, it causes funniness in my stomach. Not that I think "R" will leave me or anything. I mean, he reminds me constantly that "W" is not ours and could leave any minute. I don't want that to happen and yet, there is a part of me that would almost be relieved. The part that didn't talk him into coming inside tonight?

I briefly broached the subject again about him talking to his husband. If he can't tell his husband about us, or the fact that he plays behind his back, that he at least start talking about them having an open relationship. Or at least, You know, start planting the seeds or something so that one day, they can discuss this. He immediately got very uncomfortable... He says when they got together over 10 years ago they briefly discussed it and his lover NIXED the idea. I told him that his husband wasn't the same person he was when they met. That his husband might be more into the idea now. His husband likes "bois." Legal, but young. "W" is a hot, youngish man (32?), but he is not the age that his husband LUSTS after... I told "W" about the benefits of beginning to plant these seeds. If they could have an open relationship, then his husband could have his bois and "W" could have his bears. "W" got weird faster than lightening... I could see he did NOT like the idea...

It shocked me. Well, I said, what's good for the goose is good for the gander... And he got even weirder... I can't really explain it... But it upset me. "W" is so wonderful and yet... He can cheat on his lover... He can tell me not to worry about it, that he is the one cheating not me. AND he is that kind of man who cheats but does NOT want his husband to be with anyone else???

It hurt...

...I know that sounds funny but it is true. "W" is one of the most amazing, sweet, caring, loving men I have ever known. How can he also cheat, AND how can he be against his lover having a good time as well? I realize a big reason that "W" plays is that his husband has heart problems and takes meds that takes away his sex drive and makes it difficult for him to have sex even when he feels like it... Maybe "W" feels that if his husband DOES feel like sex it had better be with him? And shit, the way his husband oogles young men, there must be some kind of sex drive there...

...anyway...

I could have talked "W" into coming in, I am sure of it, but I didn't. I wanted to. Oh, yes! I'm so horny right now I...never mind. But after that conversation... I just couldn't...

GOD I HOPE WHEN WE STOP HAVING SEX WE WILL STILL BE FRIENDS!!!! Sometimes I really think that is why I haven't stopped the sex thing a long time ago. I am afraid he'll drift off without the sex, and that isn't right, is it? If that is the only reason "W" sticks around, then it is all the wrong reasons. And yet I know better than that. "W" is amazing... I know he cares deeply for us and it isn't just the sex...

Processing, you know? Processing... Processing... Thank goodness for LJ.

Computer and Poly Acronyms for Newbies

2005-08-11T18:21:52Z

AFAIC
As Far As I’m Concerned

AFAIK
As Far As I Know

AFAIWC
As Far As I Was Concerned

AGDoA
A Great Deal of Affection

AKA
Also Known As

ARG
Alternate Relationship Geometries

BBW
Big Beautiful Woman

BDSM
Bondage/Discipline/Sadomasochism B&D does not necessarily imply S&M, nor does S&M imply B&D but there is enough overlap and common ground that the two groups are generally lumped together.

BTDT
Been There Done That

BTDTMT
Been There Done That Major Time

BTW
By The Way

BYKT
But You Knew That

BYKTA
But You Knew That Already

DADT
Don’t Ask Don’t Tell

DOMA
Defense of Marriage Act

D/s
Dominant/submissive relationship, another facet of B&D/S&M type relationships. Some people only do emotional D/s without and B&D or S&M.

EG
Evil Grin

EPID
Every Person Is Different

FAQ
Frequently Asked Questions – a list of information people wish others knew, posed in the form of questions and answers

FF
A dyad where both partners are female

FFF
A triad with three females, possibly a V centering on the middle female

FFM
A triad of a Female, another Female, and a Male, possibly a V centering on the middle female

FMF
A triad of a Female, a Male, and another Female, possibly a V centering on the middle male

FMM
A triad of a Female, a Male, and another Male, possibly a V centering on the middle male

FWIW
For What It’s Worth

FYI
For Your Information

G/L/B/T or GLBT
Gay Lesbian Bisexual Transgendered

GMTA
Great Minds Think Alike

HBB
Hot Bi-Babe, a term used in wannas by men looking for sex with two women at the same time. It is also used (affectionately) by some poly people who feel that they (or others they know) really are Hot Bi-Babes. This term can be used for either sex.

HNG
Horny Net Geek Something resembling a wanna.

HPS
High Priestess (a Wiccan/Pagan term not frequently used on this list)

IANAL
I Am Not A Lawyer. Often followed by but and some pseudo legal advice.

IIRC
If I Recall Correctly

IME
In My Experience

IMHO
In My Humble Opinion

IMNSHO
In My Not So Humble Opinion

IMO
In My Opinion

IYO
In Your Opinion

IRL
In Real Life (see RL)

LDR
Long Distance Relationship

LOL
Laughing out loud

LMAO
Laughing My A** Off

LTNS
Long Time No See

MFF
A triad with a Male, Female, and another Female, possibly a V centering on the middle female

MFM
A triad with a Male, Female, and another Male. Possibly a V centering on the middle female

MMF
A triad with a Male, another Male. And a Female, possibly a V centering on the middle male

MMM
A triad with three males, possibly a V centering on the middle male

MOTAS
Member Of The Appropriate Sex

MOTOS
Member Of The Opposite Sex

MOTSS
Member of the Same Sex

MPW
My Poly Weekend (what happened good or bad over the weekend)

N
4 person relationship. Four people are having sex. Everyone may or may not have met each other or be friends but they know they exist. See Z

NRE
New Relationship Energy That lovely euphoria you experience when you become involved with a new love; the world seems brighter, people seem more beautiful and chocolate tastes even better.

NTS
New Toy Syndrome (see NRE)

Odt
Not even. Weird. Strange. Applies to most of us.

OMG
Oppressive Majority Group

OPW
Our Poly Weekend

ORE
Old Relationship Energy or the valuable stuff you get from years of digging together

OSO
Other Significant Other (coined by Deborah Lipp)

OTOH
On The Other Hand

PC
Politically Correct, Personal Computer

PDA
Public Display of Affection (or Personal Digital Assistant)

PIV
Penis In Vagina (a certain type of sex)

PLL
Poly Locator List (Phase Locked Loop if you're a geek)

PMR
Poly Mixed Relationship, one or more polyamorous, one or more monogamous (coined by Roy 9 June 1997, we’ll see how much it gets used)

PNW
Poly NorthWest, I mean Pacific NorthWest

PWP
Poly Wanna Potluck, a gathering of polyamorous people for food and conversation

RL
Real Life, i.e. not on the computer

ROFL
Rolling On Floor Laughing

ROTF
Rolling On The Floor

ROTFL
Rolling On The Floor Laughing

ROTFLMAO
Rolling On The Floor Laughing My A** Off

ROTFLMAOSTC
Rolling On The Floor Laughing My A** Off Scaring The Cats

SISL
Stranger In A Strange Land – Book by Robert Heinlein

SO
Significant Other

SQO
Some Quantity Of

SSO
Secondary Significant Other

TOCOTOX
Too Complicated TO eXplain

TPE
Total Power Exchange. A BDSM acronym for a master – slave relationship that includes all of life, not just sex.

TTFN
Ta Ta For Now

WRT
With Regard To

V (Vee)
A relationship of three people where one person has two partners, but the partners do not have a strong bond. Two dyads having one person in common. The bonding between the people on the ends of the V can vary wildly depending on the people involved. Example, a triad may sexually be a V but emotionally an equal triad. Or a triad may be sexually and emotionally a V where the partners would split if the focus of their relationship left them.

YMMV
Your Mileage May Vary or Your Maya May Vary

WEG
Wide Evil Grin (Thanks Deb)

Z
4 person relationship. Four people are having sex. Everyone may or may not have met each other or be friends but they know they exist. See N

Books with a Poly Theme

2005-08-11T17:12:13Z

Any books titles that appear in red means I own them...

The Ethical Slut : A Guide to Infinite Sexual Possibilities
by Dossie Easton, Catherine A. Liszt

One of the many strengths of this book for many readers is its very direct, step-by-step explanations of (for example) negotiating types of sexual behavior. There's also some very interesting material about jealousy, insecurity, and some interesting thoughts about where those feelings come from.

Face to Face to Face: An Experiment in Intimacy
by Gordon, Comp. Clanton

Group Marriage: A Study of Contemporary Multilateral Marriage
by Larry L. Constantine

The Constantines are straightforward about the inherent limitations of their research (without which it deserves 5 stars), yet even these limits are enlightening. This is the single best book exploring the sociology, dynamics, philosophies, motivations, and pitfalls of group marriage. I consider this a prime addition for the bookshelf of any serious student of group marriage, alternate family structures, polyamory, communes, and responsible nonmonogamy.

Heavenly Breakfast, an Essay on the Winter of Love
by Samuel R. Delany

This is the second major autobiographical work Delany published, detailing his experiences as part of the rock group/commune Heavenly Breakfast during 1967, and falling directly after the events of his Motion of Light in Water. Delany's rich prose does an outstanding job of illuminating the conditions the commune lived in: the four-to-a-bed, communal baths, kitchen arrangements for 15 or so, scrounging for food and dollars, personal hygiene, arguments, discussions, lover arrangements, drugs, and occasionally some working sessions for the band. For those who reached their maturity around this time, who felt the siren call of the counter-culture, every line of this book will resonate, will force memories of and the feel of that time. The character portraits he paints reek of authenticity; the dialogue is real; nothing is left out, no matter how filthy, degrading, lovely, exhalting, boring, unusual or commonplace. Pieces of this experience clearly were incorporated in his massive Dhalgren, and this book and the earlier Motion of Light in Water will help illuminate much of the frequently obscure situations of that book.

Intimate Friendships
by James W. Ramey

Loving More: The Polyfidelity Primer
Ryam Nearing

Ryam Nearing's book has always been, in my mind, the definitive introduction to polyfi relationships. In addition to covering a variety of topics of interest to anyone interested in polyamory, Nearing's book (as one might expect from the title) provides a lot of information more specifically targeted at polyfides, such as co-parenting, sharing of finances, and living powers of attorney (to provide for medical emergencies and the like).

Loving More is a deceptively small book, weighing in at less than one hundred pages. While small, Ryam manages to provide lots of clear, practical advice into the book, and I believe that the size contributes to the very approachable nature of the book. All in all, this book would be an excellent first read for people considering trying to arrange any sort of polyamorous arrangement that involved living together.

Man Sharing: Dilemma of Choice, a Radical New Way of Relating to the Men in Your Life
by Audrey B. Chapman

Marriage and Alternatives: Exploring Intimate Relationships
by Roger W. Libby

Myth of Monogamy: Fidelity and Infidelity in Animals and People
by David P. Barash Ph.D., Judith Eve Lipton M.D.

In this book, authors Lipton and Barash take a look at mating patterns throughout the animal kingdom (though they seem to spend more time on behavior in birds than on other animals). The conclusions they draw can be anticipated from the title -- that monogamy is not natural, at least based on biological, physiological, anthropological, and other evidence, and in fact is not as widely practiced as once thought. However, this is not to say, as some reviewers seem to think, that they believe that monogamy is thereby unnatural. In fact, in one place they say, "...even if human beings were more rigidly controlled by their biology, it would be absurd to claim that monogamy is unnatural or abnormal, especially since it was doubtless the way most people lived..." And later on, they affirm that "human inclinations may be able to fit whatever matrimonial pattern happens to exist in the society they happen to experience." But monogamy does go against the grain of human nature, according to the authors, and so you have to work at it.

The New Intimacy: Open-Ended Marriage and Alternative Lifestyles
by Ronald M. Mazur

As the 20th century closes, the traditional family has become a minority in America. The threshold of a new millennium is an opportune time to give voice to the intimacies of alternative lifestyles, including open marriage. The New Intimacy: Open-Ended Marriage and Alternative Lifestyles is for non-traditionalists, those ready for new life and love affirmations. The evolution of human consciousness prepares the way for the unfolding of our universal polyamorous potential. Let the pioneers be unafraid to move beyond the ancient limits of relationships to the new intimacy of responsible erotic freedom. May the new millennium be the end of pleasure-phobia.

Open Marriage : A New Life Style for Couples
by Nena and O'Neill, George O'Neill

A new reprint of the controversial 1974 book that so influentially challenged the old paradigm of "closed" relationships. The O'Neills inspired a whole generation to rethink the previous assumptions about what marriages ought to look like, attacking the myths of jealousy, ownership, control, imbalance, and a host of other conventional beliefs about marriage. They offered a new way of thinking about relationships that remains as fresh and valid today as it was nearly three decades ago.

Polyamory : The New Love Without Limits : Secrets of Sustainable Intimate Relationships
by Deborah M, Dr. Anapol

Love Without Limits is a solid introduction to polyamory. Polyamory is the practice of having multiple ethical, honest, non-monogamous relationships. Making polyamorous relationships work can be difficult for many people... they bring up issues not always faced in monogamous relationships, and poly families often have few role models and friends who can provide experienced advice. This makes books like this one extremely important. Topics covered include ethics, how to tell if polyamory is right for you, skills for successfully managing polyamorous relationships, jealousy, managing transitions from monogamy to non-monogamy, coming out, and many more.

Polyamory: Roadmaps for the Clueless & Hopeful
by Anthony D. Ravenscroft

Tony Ravenscroft leaves behind the speculation, the guesswork, and the Utopianism that only confuse the discussion. Polyamory: Roadmaps for the Clueless & Hopeful begins from the absolute basics of intimate relationships, and clearly lays out the pitfalls and problems that await everyone who embarks upon this difficult and highly rewarding way of life.
Polyamory (the book) is for everyone with any interest in the subject. Whether you’re merely curious, or already embroiled in a complex responsibly nonmonogamous life, you will find a greater understanding of what is going on. Even if you are happily married for the rest of your life, you will improve your relationships with the other people in your life.

Even a book this large can only hope to answer half your questions. Tony Ravenscroft does that, and shows you how to find your own answers for the rest. The author speaks from 20 years of experience and observation, replete with more mistakes than you ever want to make. He shares these tales with the wit and candor of a skilled storyteller. You will ponder, argue, laugh, and thank your lucky stars that you’ve been warned.

Redefining Our Relationships: Guidelines for Responsible Open Relationships (Paperback)
by Wendy-O Matik

The book has nothing that is mind-bogglingly new. It is straight-forward and common-sensical. However it obviously comes directly from the author's personal experience and will help you steer through the complexities that might arise should you decide to pursue a polyamorous lifestyle. What is refreshing is that Wendy does not try to proselytize in this book: she does not try to advocate this lifestyle as the only way. The author takes a mature attitude and one does not feel that she has adopted this lifestyle for the sake of rebellion. In other words, the works flows from her center. It is a positive statement that is life-affirming, not a negative rebellion against.

Spiritual Polyamory
by Mystic Life

Spiritual Polyamory is a powerful, groundbreaking work, certain to intrigue, challenge and stimulate members of both the "poly-curious" and polyamorous communities. Mystic Life takes you on a journey into honesty, awareness and self-exploration. You will be encouraged to explore your true beliefs about love, jealousy, sex and letting go of control. This book will help you to open your mind and heart to a fresh approach to intimacy which transcends fear and releases you into a world of unbound peace and joy.

Three in Love: Menages a Trois from Ancient to Modern Times
by Barbara Foster, Michael Foster (Contributor), Letha Hadady (Contributor )

If longevity is the proof and ménages à trois is the pudding, then Three in Love is an appropriate recipe for this classically suspect concoction. Like any good love story (or collection of love stories), this is an exploration of relationships, not a catalog of sexual exploits. Why are threesomes so popular throughout history? Are some people really better off in a triad than alone or in a duo, and why? What famous figures in art, literature and philosophy seemed to need to be in a triad to be creative? This book looks at these questions, and others. The author's claim that their own 16-year 3 way relationship is as valid as any other arrangement of marriage, the authors offer their defense with a mild dose of psychology amidst examples of famous threesomes--the more familiar (Lord Nelson and the Hamiltons, June & Henry Miller and Anaïs Nin) as well as some surprises.

A Poly Glossary

2005-08-11T17:07:23Z

Some Postings today for my future benefit...

And this poly glossary come to me via: http://www.polymatchmaker.com/pmm3/main.mv?Page=bookstore&MODULE=HTML

Closed Relationship: An agreement between or among members not to become sexually and/or romantically involved with anyone outside the relationship.

Compersion: The opposite of jealousy; the feelings of happiness that your lover(s) are also loving and being loved by other lovers. Coined by the Keristan Commune of San Francisco, which practiced polyfidelity and was disbanded in the early 1990s.

Condom Commitment: Agreement to confine exchange of bodily fluids and barrier-free intercourse to a closed group whose members have been screened for sexually transmitted diseases. A.k.a. safe-sex circle.

Expanded Family: Where three or more people choose to live as a family unit. This usually involves a commitment between each of the partners and decisions are usually made by mutual consent. The term expanded family is also used to describe the core family and their closest supporting friends/ families/lovers.

FF: A dyad where both partners are female

FFF: A triad with three females, possibly a V centering on the middle female

FFM: A triad of a Female, another Female, and a Male, possibly a V centering on the middle female

FMF: A triad of a Female, a Male, and another Female, possibly a V centering on the middle male

FMM: A triad of a Female, a Male, and another Male, possibly a V centering on the middle male

Group Marriage: A marriage involving more than two people. Not recognized by the U.S. government or most major religions in western society. Many people do it anyway, often making legal agreements that function similarly to the legalities involved in a usual marriage. Group marriages, just like couple marriages, may or may not be open to other partners.

Homosexuality: Sexual desire toward another of the same sex

Inclusive Relationship: One in which all partners agree to include more lovers into their relationship.

Intentional Family: Unrelated individuals who have joined together to establish a loving, caring family.

Intimate Network: individuals who desire friendship and perhaps sex with their lovers and other friends, forming a web of varying connections within a social circle.

Lifestyle: The typical way of life of an individual, group, or culture.

Love: Attraction based on sexual desire, affection and tenderness felt by lovers, affection based on admiration, benevolence, or common interests.

Lovestyle: A consciously thought-out and chosen type of sexual/love relationship.

MFF: A triad with a Male, Female, and another Female, possibly a V centering on the middle female

MFM: A triad with a Male, Female, and another Male. Possibly a V centering on the middle female

MMF: A triad with a Male, another Male. And a Female, possibly a V centering on the middle male

MMM: A triad with three males, possibly a V centering on the middle male

Monogamy: A closed, two person, relationship.

Monosexual: Relating only to one gender as potential or actual sexual and/or romantic partners (rather than bisexual).

Non-hierarchical polyamory: Multiperson relationship where all have equal ties to the other.

Non-monogamy: The practice of creating intimate relationships that may include sexuality which do not require sexual exclusivity. As a result, there may or may not be more than one such relationship occurring at a time.

NRE: New Relationship Energy That lovely euphoria you experience when you become involved with a new love.

Open Relationship or Open Marriage: A non-monogamous relationship or marriage. A relationship is open if there is an agreement among the members that it is acceptable to get sexually and/or romantically involved outside of the relationship. Specific rules within a relationship about such involvement are usually negotiated to best fit the people in the relationship. For instance, one or more members may want prior notification of any outside involvement by another member.

Poly: Short for polyamorous.

Polyamory: The non-possessive, honest, responsible ethical philosophy and practice of loving multiple people simultaneously. Based on the conscious choice of how many partners one wishes to be involved with, rather than accepting social norms that dictate monogamy as the only acceptable form of love.

Polyandry: the state or practice of having two or more husbands at the same time.

Polyfidelity: A group in which all partners are primary to all other partners and sexual fidelity is to the group. More primary partners can be added with the entire group's consent. Coined by the Kerista Commune.

Polygamy: the practice of having more than one wife or husband at a time.

Polygyny: the state or practice of having two or more wives at the same time.

PolyMarriage: 1: the state of being committed in multiple partnered relationship
2: a multiple partnered relationship where a commitment ritual was performed
3: any close or intimate multi partnered union of duration

Primary: In a hierarchical, multiperson relationship, the primary partner is the one to whom one is most strongly bonded, often through legal marriage.

Quad: a multiple partnered relationship with four members.

Secondary: The person or people with whom one is involved without the emotional, legal or economic commitments of primary bonding.

Serial Monogamy: Succession of monogamous partners over time; overlapping sexuality only in the transition from the current to the next partner.

Tertiary Relationship: A friendly but casual sexualove relationship of an occasional or temporary nature.

Triad: "Marriage" of three people with equal commitments to each other.

Tribe: A social group that has a strong sense of identity and may have a family arrangement as its core.

Vee:
Three people in a relationship, where the "pivot point" partner is strongly involved with the other two, and they less so with each other.

Big Surprise! LOL!

2005-08-10T20:12:08Z

Your Ideal Relationship is Polyamory

You want to have your cake... and everyone else's.
Which isn't a bad thing, if everyone else gets to eat too!
You're too much of a free spirit to be tied down by a traditional relationship.
You think relationships should be open and free, with few restrictions.

What's Your Ideal Relationship?

Can Anyone Recommend...

2005-08-10T19:14:00Z

Can anyone recommend books on polyamory? I have The Ethical Slut, but I would like something else as well...

...I do much better when I process stuff and books help me a lot!

Thanks!

SPECIAL NOTE!!! While no one commented here, they certainly did at the various places I crossposted so make sure you check them out!

Crossposted to: gay_poly, mono_poly, polyamory, polyfi and polyrelations.

Pissed Off bgaam

2005-08-10T17:54:42Z

Today's posting is in reference to TIHS POSTING

**Sigh** It seems I really pissed off bgaam, and I never meant to... I signed off EARLY the other evening when there were only a few comments in my journal and in the hours since then, about a hundred comments flew back and forth between him and others. I didn't log back on until yesterday morning to see the chaos that had ensued... I apologized to him for all the confusion, and even defending him to some people... But he is pissed and has gone back to the posting I made and deleted all his comments so that in the future, when I use the posting for reference, a lot of the comments won't make any sense...

FORTUNATELY, I still have all the email notifications and will post them here so that I can refer to them and make sense of yesterday's posting...

I will say this and I will say it clear. THANK GOD HE ISN'T MY DOM!!!! I mean, WOW! His response to what he saw as criticism was to take his toys and go home! Can you imagine what his subs must go through???? He said his relationship was about love and devotion and trust... But he doesn't think his comments will stand up to the eyes of others??? It scares me thinking of those men out there that must do whatever he tells them to!

I was asking if it were true, as he asserted, that it is "standard poly fi practice," to have a Master or Dom in the relationship. I has asked him if he minded if I used his name, he didn't respond, so I quoted from the research he did, and a comment, without using his name...

Well, after I went to bed, he jumped into the flow of the comments in the posting and said I misquoted him. I would show you said posting in gay_poly, but immaturely, he deleted those as well. I guess he didn't want anyone checking and seeing what had really gone one. He didn't want anyone to see I had NOT misquoted him, had NOT twisted ANYTHING he had said, AND he didn't want people to see how civil I had been. Again, luckily, I still have almost every email notification from LJ and post for posterity what happened...

And it really truly doesn't matter... I have learned to keep away from LJ drama... If it were only his immature reaction to all this (which is posted at the end of this epic posting), I would just let it go. I will let it go... But what lingers in my mind, what worries me (and I must let it go) is...

Can you imagine what his subs must go through???? He said his relationship was about love and devotion and trust... And this is how he behaves??? It scares me thinking that he is the head/Master of a household! Does he treat them as he did this situation? Does he just pout or get angry or constantly change his tale or take it out on innocent people?

He gets mad at ME and deletes all his comments AND tells me I am no gentleman, and all I did was go to bed and miss the fufarah! He couldn't "get back" at everyone, so he besmirches ME and bans me from commenting in his journal. Oh, heavens, will I live?

THANK GOD HE ISN'T MY DOM!!!!

Here is part of what I said in his posting at gay_poly, after his quote from another source, that polyfi families often had a Master or Dom... (I wanted to understand more about what he was talking about)

I find it interesting that one of your points for polyfidelity is that it often has a Master and subservients. I know no less than five polyfi groups of people personally and more online, and not a single one of them has a "master" or "subservients"... I've never heard of this before...

Could you tell me more? Thanks!

This was his response:

Not *my* points... just what I gleaned from other sources. And I am presuming you may merely be aware of mostly gay-male polyfi triad relationships.

Historically, in the het/bi world a family has a hieracrhical [sic] structure - just like a regular family. Usually the dad or mom. From *my* personal experiences, both polyfi bear quads I know of (Colorado and Virginia) have a "head-of-household". The 10-member polyfi chub family in New Jersy has one leader, a 2nd in charge, and the rest subservients.

In *my* family of 8 men two years ago, I was "elected" head-of-household. In my family of 4 today, I am the master.

It is my belief that unless there is indeed a family leader to settle issues; disputes, jealousy, drama, ect., and to have a swing vote in case of ties, there will be power issues that ultimately lead to the dissolution of the family.

FWIW, I do not get ivolved [sic] in triads period. For many reasons. Has to be an even number and everyone has to agree that there is a boss. I'm surprised you had not heard of this before. It is standard poly practice. I've been studying poly in it's many forms for many years.

The examples you described are probably more based on polyequity.

Yes, he asserts that the definition is NOT his own, but then he goes on to say that as far as he knows, the definition is correct. It is from these comments that he claims that I misquoted him! That I twisted what he said! How did I do that?

Here then comes more drama and I only place it here for posterity... Please do not feel you need to read ANY of this... I just wanted it for MY records at a later date...

I said the following...

Thanks for responding! See, my main thing was that you said "most" poly families had a "boss" and that was just not what I was seeing! So it is in the DSD community I guess... I guess I should know what that means and I am feeling stupid right now for not knowing... I would assume dominance would be one of those words...

...and no, I would [not] qualify for membership in your family... Oh, well! LOL! NO ONE is telling me what to do... I've gotten fired over that. I stick away from religions where GOD is supposedly telling me what I MUST DO! I have met NO man that I would give that power to... It is just a trip I don't understand, although I have heard the advantages of such a situation. They just aren't advantages for me. I like the team situation where we all jump in and do our parts for the betterment of all...

Thanks for responding!

His reply was the following...

And thanks for your sincere interest. But, you are making another presumption. I do not "boss" my guys around. I do not TELL them what to do. I offer guidance, direction, advice, comfort, compassion, love, support, dominance and discpline [sic] when appropriate, I impart wisdom as needed. For the most part, we all pull our own weight and have a "facilitated democracy" as opposed to a dictaorship [sic].

(DSD = dominamce [sic], submission, discipline, we do not practice S/M or bondage, we consider those things games, we consider DSD real life.)

See? Everything was going quite friendly... Now HERE is where things start to get weird...it still starts okay, and then wings way out somewhere...

This is what I said:

Sorry if I was not more careful with my words. I did say I would not release MY power to anyone, except for maybe an evening of "games." I would not let anyone dominate me or especially "discipline" me! The first time ANYONE disciplines me (outside of a game) will be the last f*cking time he disciplines ANYONE! He better not fall asleep in MY house that night!

But that is just me. And I get guidance, direction, advice, comfort, compassion, love, support, and even wisdom without having to give up my personal power... But I also understand we are talking from two different places and I mean my words to be in no way disrespectful for what works for you and yours!

His reply was (still friendly):

Dont feel bad LOL... MOST people have totally wrong impressions of us. In fact, a guy at the bar in Tucson last Thursday was telling me the same things you are. He couldnt understand whay someone would "give up" "personal power" ect ect. It is not about that at all. Thats just most people's misconception.

We also are pacifists and a mixture of catholic, buddhist, pagan, atheist. But, we all belive in non-violence. It somewhat disturbs me to read how violent your first paragraph reads. I hope you mean that in jest.

FYI, our disclipline [sic] does not involve physical means. It could be as simple as "Walter go sit in the corner until you get over Tom eating all your Oreos" LOL

Peace

Peace.. Peace! See, things were still friendly… I can't give you my reply because he deleted it... It refereed to the fact that he felt that people were attacking him... I felt bad about that. I had never intended this with my posting. I also I assured him that I was joking, and of course I wasn't going to kill any one, while the slept in my bed or otherwise.

This was the response I got from him next...

***...Sorry if I was not more careful with my words...***

You are WAY too late young feller.

Young feller??? Huh? Why is he calling me "young feller??"

You took some stuff and twisted it all out of proportion for some reason.

You have read everything... Where did I misquote him?

I require everyone I interact with in whatever capacity to be a gentleman. I removed all my comments from all the places you tried to get your attention from and refuse to be involved.

I don't even understand what this sentence means the grammar is so horrible... And how was I not a gentleman. If you look at my posting, you will see that I constantly defend his right to live however he wanted... My only problem was his statement that D/s was standard for poly/fi relationships!

Good luck to you but please don't email me again, don't mis-quote me, don't mis-represent anything I type here in the future and don't bother commenting in my personal journal because as preventative measures I use the ban_set frequently.

Our exchanges were through lj... I may have emailed him, but I don't remember... And oh no! He has banned me from his journal! HEAVENS to Betsy! What will I do? I mean, there are only three or four people on live journal, right? [sarcasm] Who will be my friend if he bans me?

So in other words, since I didn't see what was going in my posting because I went to bed... Because HE jumped in and told everyone that HE was the one I was talking about (and I had kept that a secret)... Since HE fought with people, (people who assured him they were not attacking him for his lifestyle, only that he was saying that D/s was standard poly practice)... Because I had stepped out of the flow of conversation when he started acting like a martyr and I wasn't able to say anything... Because he I was the only one he could finally really effect... His response is to delete all his replies and to get mad at ME and claim that I am not a gentleman!!!! How did I behave that could have in anyway been considered ungentlemanly???

I even defended his right to believe what he wanted to believe and to run his household the way he wanted to! I simply took exception to his use of the words "standard poly practice." That is it! And he attacks ME! I wasn't even online! I didn't see what was going on...

One of you theorized that he had made up his whole family and situation. I thought that was going too far... But after all this? Now I believe it! Maybe that is why he did what he did, and why he got so angry when he felt as if he were being attacked by you all!

But, MY, GOD! This man MAY be in charge of three individuals!!!! Does he do this to them????? Does he take things out on them? Does he pout? Does he take his toys and go home with those he claims to love?

THIS man is in charge of handing out guidance, direction, advice, comfort, compassion, love, support, dominance, discipline and wisdom???????????

Polyamory...Who's the Boss?

2005-08-09T02:17:33Z

Today I saw a definition of polyfidelity that went thusly:

1. Relationship involving more than two people who have made a commitment to keep the sexual activity within the group and not have outside partners. (Rumor has it that this term was coined by the group Kerista.)
2. Often has a Master and subservients.
3. Usually involves communal living arrangement.

I was surprised. As you know, there are at least five poly fi families and they do not fit the master and subservants definition. So I asked the guy who had posted the definitions about this and he said...

"Historically, in the het/bi world a family has a hieracrhical [sic] structure - just like a regular family. Usually the dad or mom... ...It is my belief that unless there is indeed a family leader to settle issues; disputes, jealousy, drama, etc., and to have a swing vote in case of ties, there will be power issues that ultimately lead to the dissolution of the family.

I'm surprised you had not heard of this before. It is standard poly practice. I've been studying poly in it's many forms for many years."

I have also been reading The Ethical Slut and so far, there is nothing poly families being masters and servants...

Is this man right? Should he be surprised at my naivete?

I know I sure as hell are not giving control of my life to anyone, male or female, boss or preacher or priest or guru... Been there, done that, bought and threw away the t-shirt...

Not that I think there is ANY thing WRONG with Dom/Sub/Master/Slave etc relationships... Not at all! Whatever works for people! I just don't think a "standard part" of being in a polyfi relationship includes this. Certainly not in the situations I know of...

You thoughts? Any help you can give me would be appreciated.

Edit: The poster of that definition has stated that the definition was not his own definition. It came from information he compiled from the internet in his research. To be fair to me though, he did agree with the definition.

This was crossposted to ethical_sluts , mono_poly , polyamory and polyfi .

R and I Communicate!!!!!!!!

2005-08-05T20:10:59Z

To my surprise and happiness, “R” brought “J” up last night. Remember I have said that “R” is not a very good communicator. He never had to be. He was an only child raised by a single parent since he was like five. His mother isn’t a real communicator herself, very very private… Not only that, but his mother barely saw him naked after he was potty trained or could take a bath by himself. He doesn’t want me in the bathroom when he is “using” it and we’ve been together for 4.5 years!

He loves alone time and that makes it really hard on me because I am very social. I am a person who likes to spend tons of time with my lover and share everything with him. Movies, books, vacations, experiences, and more. HELL! The first time I asked “R” if I could taste the food he had selected at a restaurant, he was stunned. Shocked even… Isn’t that wild? The first time I asked have a sip of his soda pop on a hot day, he asked, weirded out, “what about the germs?” I pointed out we had eaten each other’s asses. What germs had we not shared already? He had one of his revelations (the teleport kind I’ve mentioned before) and said, “good point,” and we’ve been able to share a pop ever since. But he still thinks it’s weird…

He LOVES his alone time and he ability to do things on his own. It makes me feel isolated and insecure. But I am learning. I am learning to be my own primary… But I guess he is learning too.

Anyway, the point being… I had decided to not pursue “J” in anyway and to let “R” have that moment. I realized that a piece of advise I got was very possibly correct (damnit), that me wanting “J” was more related to jealousy issues or especially ego issues rather than wanting to share an experience with “R.”

And when one considers the fact that “R” is such an independent person and doesn’t need that sharing that I crave so much...I didn’t want to ruin anything. Spoil it. I don’t mean sex sharing, but just the simple sharing that partners do…

Yet, last night “R” asked me if I wanted to have sex with “J” and should he pursue a three-way? “R” brought it up! “R” -- the man who won’t communicate… I told him it wasn’t necessary, that I was attracted to “J” but I didn’t want anyone to feel uncomfortable, I didn’t want to ruin anything. I explained all that I have said above…

To my surprise, he said that he didn’t understand half of what I was talking about and that he loved his evening with “J,” but a three-way would hardly ruin ANYTHING and that he was really turned onto the idea. “R” wants to pursue this three-way, even though I told him it was not necessary at all!

NOW what do I do? I told him to do what he wants, that is wasn’t necessary for there to be a three-way… He wants to. He wasn’t sure what approach to take with “J” on the situation though and I guess “R” was asking for MY advise!!!

You know what? (Duh) “R” is not my ex!!!

I told “R” that about the only kink I have ever found in him is that he likes to watch me suck cock or get fucked. Raymond said he did like both. I said if he really wanted the three-way, if it wouldn’t spoil things, that if it wouldn’t spoil his chance to “get” “J” one more time before the cowboy has to return to England…to tell “J” that it would turn him on to watch me suck cock…

Raymond positively giggled with excitement!

You know what? (Duh) “R” is not my ex!!!

He wanted to know if I was sure that I wanted him to let his “tiger” out, the one he’s been caging for so long. The one I told him was in there and he finally believes it. I told him that I’d like him to let it out with ME now and then, but yes, I was sure. As long as he let it out with me too and that tiger didn’t turn him into a liar and a cheat. He says it won’t. But he is afraid to let it out. He didn’t say that last sentence in those words, but it’s obvious… I’ll be there to help.

So maybe the advice was right. Maybe the familiarity of sex with me has kept “R” from letting his inhibitions down and out. So it if it takes someone else to get him there, why not? It saddens me in a way… That I can’t be the one to get him to let his guard down and his tiger out, at least initially, at least it seems to be finally happening. His sexual repression might be going away, a bit at a time. I mean, he is a small town boy and it took him thirty years to come out in the first place. Just sucking cock was a big deal for him!! Rimming was almost impossible because he could only associate assholes with being dirty. Hot sweaty sex with “J” shocked him into seeing that buttholes can be very very clean. I don’t know WHY he couldn’t see that with me! I am fastidiously clean, obsessively so.

But I guess just doing what he was doing with me was light-years beyond what he imagined he could ever do. Again, maybe it was familiarity! I could only take him so far… He needed someone else to take him the next step. Someone new and hot and UN-familiar!

So I can go with other advise…Buddhist and otherwise… Don’t go to that sad place. I can choose NOT to. And I can be excited that Raymond is realizing that these sexual things are hot (for his sake). AND I can benefit sexually myself from this, right?

SO, a three-way might and might not happen. We will see.

It sure takes the pressure off. The three-way isn’t important to me… And R gave me a glowingly detailed report on what happened! Oooopppss! Sorry if you clicked on that and you weren't able to read it. I am not going to share that one with you though, sorry… I wrote that for my own private memories...

What matters is that I don’t NEED the three-way to happen anymore. I don’t know why, but I don’t. If it happens, it does, if it doesn’t, it doesn’t…

I feel so free! This is amazing! I can’t believe it!

And you know what else? (Duh) “R” is not my ex!!!

HURRAY!!!!!!!!!!!

href="http://www.livejournal.com/community/polyamory/1470951.html">Polyamory Here</a>

Life is Choice... (another rambling posting)

2005-08-04T17:04:47Z

Interesting day...

...spent a long time thinking and taking alone time last night...

It is a big step my lover and I have taken in the last few days (which a lot of you have read about Here and Here ) and I am not sure what to think. SO many mixed emotions. You know? This is all so scary and exhilarating and so filled with dangers AND possiblities!

I have let my lover play with another man, all on his own, and well, he had a f*cking wonderful time and has been in a really good mood. **shakes head** And it was sex with a man besides me that has put him in this wonderful mood... Or helped.

I have such horrible terrible baggage with my ex and all his cheating and this new direction is making me not only face that stuff, but downright embrace it...

The first five years I was with my ex, "D," it was amazing. I was sooooo in love. And I thought he was too. I now suspect he may have even cheated on my on our honeymoon in New Orleans.

See, "D" and I played together, but only together. No separate f*cking (or so I thought, of course). And then I started getting really friendly with this black straight man at work. Very handsome. I am RARELY attracted to black men, but I was this guy, and sheltered little white boy, I wondered what it would be like to have sex with an African American.

And he was flirting like crazy. I thought he was straight, he said he was, but DAMN. He would even show me his cock in the bathroom...

Well, "D" decided it would be okay for me to do this guy alone (if the guy was willing). It scared and thrilled the shit out of me. How could we "go there?" That was one big huge damned step! But it only took about 30 seconds and I was, "OKAY!" It sorta bothered "D" that it didn't take anything to convince me. I felt a bit guilty and isn't that ironic in retrospect. He was cheating already and he was upset that I wanted sex with someone besides him...

But I did have sex with this “straight” man -- on an abandoned floor of our office building -- on the floor! I don’t know how good it was for him, but it was for me! And all through the sex, “D” was there. Do you know what I mean? He was there! I was so G-D in love with him and I was so thrilled that our love was SO deep that he could allow me the … experience? Adventure?

I remember when I found out he was cheating, that wonderful experience with the black man suddenly felt so…awful, cheap, false, fake…ruined. What had made it SO special for me…was all illusion. It had never been real…

So now I think…for years that experience was sullied. But maybe I should reclaim it? I’ve known something for a long time, but now I need to KNOW it… My experience with that man WAS special. Because what it meant to ME is that I loved “D” enough to be with someone else, and that it didn’t change how I felt about “D.” It WAS special to me and really, that is all that matters…

Sex with someone besides my “husband” was downright cosmic. What it was for me can still be true. It doesn’t matter what he did, that he sullied it. “D” ruined it for HIM! The whole thing could have been JUST as special for him. We are given free will, and he chose to do what he did.

So here I am on this threshold… This new beginning. In some ways I’ve already stepped through… I can turn around, right now. Before too many days pass… But I can’t undo the fact that “R” and I stepped through… We have both now had sex with someone besides each other, on our own, alone.

When “D” and I passed through that doorway, I “thought” we had entered into a new and wonderful land. I felt so liberated and so free and more in love than I had ever ever thought it was possible to be. I adored “D.” Nearly worshiped him! I shared all my thoughts with him, shared everything. I thought he was doing the same. I let “D” live our a fantasy with a truck driver. On his own. Someone I would never ever have the slightest chance to meet of have sex with as well. And while it was scary, it was also liberating and freeing and it made me more in love.

But it was all illusion… It doesn’t mean that my feelings were…only the circumstances.

So here I am with “R” and I was terrified for 4.5 years to let it all happen again. What if “R,” who is just not that damned communicative, is doing the same? What if it is just some huge ruse? What if he is laughing at me behind my back? Or what if this is the crack cocaine that sends him over the edge, just like it did for “D.” Because, I mean, three-thousand times ???? “D” was a compulsive sex addict.

I have a addictive personality although pretty much my only “problem” is with eating. I don’t obsess on drugs or alcohol or anything like that… But I f*cking love sex and I worry that I could be unleashing the floodgates or the dogs of war with myself as well… Not just with “R.” What if I become a slut? The unethical kind? What if either of us start down a dark path, and it ruins our lives?

See, conformity and monogamy are so damned safe. Poly is dangerous. Scary. Conformists and monogamists have such a huge support in society, but not polyamorists! We have little to fall back on, few to ask for advice. Just small little communities online for instance… And the RARE book like, The Ethical Slut. If anyone knows any other books, PLEASE let me know…

I am just plain scared…

This new land I’m stepping into, “R” and I are stepping into, could be so wonderful!! But there are pits with razor sharp rocks we could fall into…and ruin everything…

But the, as people have said, there are pits everywhere aren’t there? Even in conformist, monogamous lives. We could reap benefits we would have never dreamed of by taking these steps…

And here is the part I really am so excited and scared about at the same time… including input? Advise I need…

That life I thought I had with “D?” That wonderful, exciting, loving, free life? The one I didn’t have after all? I could have it with “R.” I could step out of fear and take a chance! Because it didn’t work once doesn’t mean it couldn’t work this time, right? And every relationship is filled with chances, mono OR poly… Right?

I look at what happened with “R” and his cowboy… I’ve found out that the cowboy has had terrible experiences with three-ways. He is far more attracted to “R.” He worries that a three-way with “R” and me could be bad…for me! That he just wouldn’t pay enough attention to me… This shows that “evil” poly people/people with open relationships CAN be totally classy and be ethical…

I see that “R” got to have this totally hot, liberating and exciting experience… Should I be involved? Should I let it alone? “R” has told me several times that he can tell “J” that they only way they can have sex again is if it is a three-way. He has hinted strongly that that is the way it is going to be anyway… But should I?

Is it ethical? YES, I would love to suck the cowboy’s cock…and he might be willing. I guarantee he’ll love it…at least the physical part. But would I be un-ethical then? Would I be using this man? I’ve had tons of sex? I don’t “need” to have sex with him -- even though I really want to… But why do I want to?

“D” had sex with so many men and one of the things that really really really devastated me was -- not only had I had no say-so in the situations, but I never knew who they were. They were just shadowy ghosts in my mind that would not stop haunting my mind and my heart and my soul. I would never know who they were or what they looked like or what they did with my HUSBAND (who had sworn fidelity).

And it would be so fucking easy to fall back into that ghost land. If we open our relationship, and “R” can be with who he wants to be with, that same horrible thing could happen and I could be haunted by those faceless shadowy forms…

But just sticking with reality instead of borrowing problems…

Should I just let “J” go? Should I let it be? Should I just let “R” have that wonderful experience and not invade it? Let “R” be separate? He’d still be with me!

The three-way could be great. My three-ways have always changed people’s minds… “OH! A three-way can be fun! Thank you! You’ve really helped me,” is something I’ve been told quite a few times…

But am I just justifying? I know only I can really answer that, but right now I can’t. And “J” goes back to England in less than two weeks, so I need to figure it out… If that is even possible.

I can see some thing so clearly.

I can live a life of panic and fear… I can live a life of (gay) conformity and lead us back to monogamy. “R” would do it. I can insist on a three-way. “R” would still have had his experience. Or I can make myself NOT need that. Let “R” have the experience as something all his… All but the first possibility would work… Could be okay…

Buddhism has taught me so much. I see that I have a fucking choice but how I relate to all this. I can chose where I let my emotions fall at this time… I could REVEL in the fact that the man I love has had this experience, I could. All I have to do is let myself. I can see it right there, all I have to do is reach out and touch it… I don’t have to be scared or insecure. But I can see that as well and I know that it would be easy to reach out and grab those feelings as well…

And would it ruin it if we had a three-way? “R” is not me. He’s told me that he’d be happy to make it a three-way. He just wanted to have sex with “J.”

“R” and I have this HUGE gulf between us. I see the difference and while I don’t totally understand it, I see it. “R” just plain doesn’t understand. “R” was raised by a single parent with no siblings. I was raised by two parents with a sibling. “R” has been forced to live independently and as his own person all his life and he likes it. I have been raised and lived with others all my life and I like it. Connection gives me security. Doing things with people makes me feel connected. Doing things with my lovers makes me feel like there is a foundation. It makes me feel secure. Talking and communicating makes me feel good and secure. “R” feels totally uncomfortable about communicating. He feels I should “know” how he feels and not need to “over-communicate.” He feels secure, so why don’t I, he asks.

**sigh**

Despite all this confusion, I do feel good. I am NOT going to make myself miserable. The second Buddhist precept says that WE cause our own suffering. And we can chose not to go there. I do not have to attach myself to “R” to be a person. I CAN be my own best primary. All I have to do, is do it…

But I’d still like your advice on “to three-way or not to three-way…” Should I just leave it alone?

Thank you all, and Namasté!

Too be continued...
Cross posted to Polyamory Here

FORTY-FIVE MINUTES

2005-08-02T23:31:42Z

Trying to figure our where to begin…

First and foremost, thanks to each and every one of you for your responses and comments yesterday/the other day. I felt so much understanding, so much (dare I say it?) love. There was so much good advice, and you all helped me more than I can possibly tell you. There was no judgment! And I meant it when I said I have been attacked in the past. I phrased a sentence “wrong” or something, and the avalanche of judgment fell… I was called immature, or close-minded, or passive-aggressive, or judgmental or any other host of ugly words. It was aweful. They were so busy attacking me for what they felt was judgment on my part that they never addressed my posting!

But as time passed I realized that – shit fire – we all have our issues and we all have our baggage and people were reacting to their own baggage and NOT what I was saying. A wonderful book is teaching me not to take anything personally… (“The Four Agreements). And I must extend that to “R” and his cowboy, “J.” Not to take what they are doing or not doing personally…

Okay…how to start? Maybe with something short I wrote yesterday evenging before everything really started? Here goes…

So here I am, waiting for “W” to come pick my up for our “date”…

I might well be gone before my lover, my love, my “R” even gets home… Maybe that’s better? Not to even see him before his “tryst?” LOL … I’ve written a note telling him how much I love him and that I hope he has a wonderful night…

Now “W” is the man we both play with and have only played with separately a few times… He is “safe” because he is happily married and we only played with him separately after we had played with him together a lot of times… So he was different (and I still panicked when he played alone with “R” but I’ve come a long way since then…)

“W” is such a good man and is quite happy for us and was happy to distract me tonight. We will go to a movie and come back here to…whatever. Hopefully “R” will have a fun place to play…I should put a PS on the note that I left him that says if they don’t have a place to play, to call “W’s” cell phone and let us know not to come back here! I don’t want them playing some place where they could get in trouble after all!

Anyway, I want to thank people for advice! Thank you so much!

**takes deep breath and goes downstairs**

Okay… Poly Mantra Number One: Communicate…ooommmm…communicate…ooommmm…communicate!

Remember to breath…remember to breath…

Okay… Now it is today… So, as I finished typing the preceding few paragraphs and “R” got home early and I went downstairs and gave him a big smooch, butterflies bouncing like crazy in my stomach… A few minutes later “W” knocked on the door and he and I headed off for our movie. “The Island.” It was much better than I thought it was going to be and I recommend it…

Then “W” and I went to a nice dinner, had a beer, and talked quite a bit. “W” was just wonderful, really being there for me, letting me talk. I owe him so much. Thank God he was there for me. So loving, so good, so kind… I am so blessed.

And I actually let him talk as well! LOL! I didn’t want to just ramble and blot “R” out. I wanted to think about “R” and how much I love him… And every time “W” asked me how I was doing, I realized … holy shit! I was doing fine!!! I was kind of excited even. Happy for “R” and this step we were taking and letting him just have a f*cking good time… There was even a part of me that was … turned on? Is that bad? Is it okay that I got a hardon thinking about him having sex with someone?

So then “W” and I headed back to the house so we could do some playing ourselves and we’d been there maybe five minutes when “R” called to ask if it was clear for him to come home! Arrrggghhhh! I couldn’t believe it!

Honesty time…

No.

I wasn’t ready for him to come home. He had gotten to play with “J,” the hot cowboy, and I wanted some play time myself, godsdamnit! So, I listened to that inner voice, I wanted no hard feelings… No resentments later on… And even though I felt a twinge of guilt, I told my man that I didn’t want him to come home yet. And he said that it was okay and that he’d get “J” to bring him home and he’d take the truck and go do something and give me and “W” some time.

**guilt**

Those old fucking Christian and “straight” cultural tapes… (I use straight in reference to right-wing and not heterosexual…heterosexual people can be “queer.”)

But, I wasn’t going to go to that Guilt Place!! I couldn’t! I needed some time with “W.” I don’t know why exactly, it sounded immature and childish to me, but I wanted…needed it. For my own ego? **shrug** I don’t know… But sometimes you must acknowledge a craving…

“R” said it was no problem!! And I attacked “W” and we had some fucking fantastic sex.

We do, “W” and I.

The few times we have played without “R.” (And there has only been a few… And “R” has been allowed to play alone with “W” as well…)

Anyway, when “W” and I have sex it is quite flaming HOT, because neither of us is “vanilla” and we can really let ourselves go crazy when we are alone, without “R” or without “W’s” spouse…

What we did (which is not important but I record this for my sake at least, for remembrance--and which must be highlighted to be read): So we made out on the couch and “W” told me how hot I was, which I really, really needed to hear. And we went upstairs and licked all over each other (no rimming this time) and he asked me if he’d told me how very much he liked my dick (which I really needed to hear--ego again) and he fucked the hell out of me and it was OH so HOT, and we cuddled…… and then we saw the time and we got dressed. I couldn’t help but think that poor “R” driving around out there somewhere, alone, not able to enter his own home cuz his lover (me) was fucking with another man…

Of course, that must have been my tapes, huh? I mean, he’d just been with another man himself, right?! And “R” isn’t a boy (mostly!). He’s a man. He’s all “growed up.” And he offered to give me and “W” some time!

“W” asked once again if I was okay and I smiled and said I was okay. I really was! I felt good and I felt sorta like a mommy bird who has sent her young off to fly or something. So I sent “W” on his way and then…

Then I noticed that “R’s” truck was still outside… Things that make you go, “hmmmmm….” Especially when you are insecure and learning and trying NOT to be insecure…working through these issues.

So I call “R” to let him know he can come home…and he didn’t answer his cell phone. And for God’s sake, what the fuck did I do? I got all fluttery in my stomach. And nervous. And insecure… WHY??? Does that make any fucking sense at all???

Why was I okay until that moment?

I watched TV a short while and called him again and … no answer…

And again…and no answer and suddenly, duh, I realize he is not answering because he is again having sex with the cowboy, “J.”

And it is all I can fucking do not to panic! And I feel so stupid! And I break into a sweat and my stomach churns and I DO panic (but squelch it) and try not to cry and I ask myself why I am being so fucking fucking fucking fucking STUPID! Why was it okay hours and even minutes ago for “R” and “J” to be having sex, and now it wasn’t??? What sense did that make????????

And I sweated and the butterflies went mad and FINALLY “R” called and I saw that this interminable time had only been…

…forty-five minutes…

Why had forty-five minutes seemed so g-damned long?

All the old issues came up and they came up with a vengeance. And I asked him if he had had sex again and he said yes and I asked him if he had had fun and he said, oh yes, he had had lots of fun and I didn’t know whether to jump for joy or burst into long braying sobs…and does that make any sense either????? And I could hear “J” in the background and he knew what I was asking…and I tried (fairly successfully) not to hate him (“J,” not “R”).

So “R” gets home and he’s just…just bopping he’s had such a good wonderful amazing time and he’s grinning like a little boy and I am so happy and so scared and so excited and soooooo uncomfortable all at the same time….

What they did (which is not important but I record this for my sake at least, for remembrance--and which must be highlighted to be read): After “W” and I left, “R” got ready and when “J” got there, they talked a bit and then had sex… On my couch… LOL… Our couch. They made out like mad (so did “W” and I for goodness sakes) and then the rimmed each other (“R” doesn’t like to rim me…he kept saying how clean “J” was and the issues came up and I thought, “what am I” Dirty for goodness sakes? I am fastidiously clean, especially when I think I might get rimmed). “R” liked rimming him! And “J” sucked him off and then shot off all over “R’s” belly… And they went out for dinner and the “R” called me and instead of taking him home to drive around alone, “J” was good and kind enough to delay his plans and soon they had sex again and did the above again and “R” let “J” cum in his mouth but didn’t swallow… Good. **blushes shamefully** He won’t swallow me so why should he swallow someone else? And they didn’t fuck cuz I didn’t want “J” fucking “R” cuz “R” won’t really let me fuck him, and “J” has an agreement with his spouse that they can have sex with others when separated by an ocean, but fucking isn’t okay.

So I welcomed him with open arms and we cuddled on the couch. “R” was incredibly – what’s the word? -- accommodating! Assuring… He was giving me whatever I needed and I needed assurance and he gave it to me… I relayed that I had insecurities over the fact that he was willing to do things with “J” that he doesn’t seem to do with me and we talked and cuddled and hugged and held each other and watched some TV…

And I was insecure cuz they had sex twice and it had been for-fuck-ever since WE have had sex twice in one evening…and shitfire…in retrospect… What was wrong with that? I can say this now, the next day, after reading tons of good advise… But I must also own up to what I am feeling and not deny those feelings, right?

See, NOW I can say that but I couldn’t last night.

I mean, of course “R” was willing to have sex twice. WANTED to have sex twice! This was new! It was exciting! “R” hadn’t had sex with someone without me being around (except for “W”) in years and of course it was exciting enough to have sex twice! “R” is really hot for the cowboy! Isn’t that just human nature? It wasn’t about me not being “good enough.” We had sex all the fucking time when we were new! Them having sex twice wasn’t about me at all…

But funny how LONG forty-five minutes can be…

I told him it was important to me that we make love and was he going to be able to have sex again at 10:30 at night when he needed to get up early the next morning and did he have enough energy and he said…he…sure…DID!

He wanted to know if I wanted him to shower first…did he want the smells and tastes of “J” off his body and you know…I DID NOT! I wanted them there!

Possibly too much information: We made love and “R” was willing to rim me and did the best job he has ever done and tasted “W” cum on me…and I licked all over “R’s” belly and tasted “J’s” cum and it was good…I don’t know how to explain it, but it made it all better and it got me very hot besides! And we cuddled all night and I felt better…

But still felt insecure this morning until I re-read advise and read some new advise… My favorites centered around several comments…

In my situation, I know my gf *will*, without a doubt, fall in love with people that she is intimate with. I don't need her to close out love. I DO need for her to refrain from making life-changing plans without my buy-in. We live together and are planning a future together. We have not agreed to not fall in love with anyone else, but we HAVE agreed that we are committed to a life together. There may well be other people that we love and plan a life with in the future, but if so, it will be something we do together. Agreements about actions.

I don’t know why that made me feel so good but it did. “R” and I are both quite emotional…and we get “crushes.” What good advise to think about in the future. Thank you so very very much! It is okay for me or “R” to get crushes or even fall in love with someone else… But we are committed to a life together. And if there are other people that we love and decide to include in our lives in the future, it will be something we do together.

Another good piece of advise was… …be your own primary.

Damn! What good fucking advise! :-)

And then, the words that really really really really helped me get over that forty-five minutes…

Someone told me about how they made the decision it was okay for their lover to have sex with someone else… Their words: I mean, better for him to be happy, and better for him not to sleep with someone anyway and then just lie to me about it, right? ...And then he did it... [had sex with someone else] For about half an hour, I was completely freaked out. I had the normal vanilla reaction of "How could he do this to me...he said he wouldn't...etc." And then it was like..."ok, it's just sex, who cares, anyway? What happens between him and some girl has nothing to do with me...he loves me." And that was enough for me.

YES!!! “R” loves ME!!!

But what really did it was, “I mean, better for him to be happy, and better for him not to sleep with someone anyway and then just lie to me about it, right? ...”

Because the sex DID make “R” happy. It made him really happy. He had a wonderful time. And he DOES love ME! He doesn’t love “J.” And I have been out for a decade and a half. I’ve had sex with many many many men in ALL kinds of situations… On the other hand, “R” didn’t come out until he was over 30. When he met me he’d only had sex with maybe five men and he’s only had sex with very few men since we met! He hasn’t tasted the banquet that I have been fortunate enough to feast from..

Shit… He had a wonderful time last night and I LOVE HIM! “R” was so happy when he got home…that is worth it, isn’t it?

And, OH, the doors this will open! So much growth potential. All of which can give me many ways to not only get over what my ex “did” to me, but to face and embrace what he did to me so I can REALLY get over that baggage.

And ultimately, “D” didn’t do anything “to” me, did he? He did it to himself. HE fucked everything up. He was dishonest. HE is now HIV positive. He fucked his life up.

And I found a new man. A better man!

And that wonderful loving arrangement I “thought” I had with “D,” but didn’t really? That doesn’t mean I can’t have that with “R.” We can love each other dearly and let each other play with others as well… It doesn’t have to fuck us up as it did with “D” and I. “D” and I had something special and “D” fucked it up. That doesn’t mean ALL non-monogamous relationships are a bad idea!

I don’t get into the idea (at present) that the sex he has with others isn’t about me. I mean, we are separate, but we are committed and what we do effect each other. But it isn’t about hurting me and it isn’t about me not being sexy enough or not good enough in bed. I want other men! And it doesn’t change the fact that I adore “R.”

I just HAVE to get into my head, with practice (oh, the advise I got on practice), that “R” is NOT my ex. I have to try. I have to trust. Because he isn’t my ex. And even if we have a totally closed monogamous relationship where sex is NOT allowed, as one person said, that doesn’t mean he won’t follow the rules anyway, or meet some man in a grocery store…

Another piece of wonderful advise was, Maybe you can counter than by chanting the mantra "I will judge R on R's past and present behavior and not on my ex's past behavior" over and over when the worry peaks. YES! Thank you!

I can’t control him. Do I even want to?

God gave us free-will. Can’t I do the same? I want him to WANT me. I can’t force him. And open relationship or not, he can still leave, if it is because he meet someone else or not. If he does, then he does. Life and love and relationship is a chance no matter what… Non-traditional-monogamy or polyamory comes with its risks.

But what doesn’t?

Life is risk.

And this poly-thing could come with so many rewards…

I think the biggest thing is…just to take one day at a time…

Too be continued...
href="http://www.livejournal.com/community/polyamory/1468450.html">Polyamory Here</a>

On Open Relationships...

2005-08-01T14:43:46Z

Hey...

I haven’t posted again in quite a awhile…life has been interesting and I am growing. So is my lover… When I have posted it has mostly been about poly-fi… I find that there are some developments that I never expected from a different direction.

First: I am cross-posting this and I hope it doesn't upset anyone.

Second: So often when I post here I get jumped on like crazy and no one addresses what I was writing/asking about... I will somehow offend someone by the way I phrase my posting and it is never my intention. **sigh**

A major reason why I so rarely post. It is obvious to me that I am not the only one in the world with baggage. Those people who jump my case so bad have baggage as well or they would just skip right to answering my questions or addressing my concerns instead of attacking me for phrasing a sentence in a way that personally offended them for some reason...

Big intro? Sorry... I really need some advice bad... SHIT! There is so much to say and I don’t want to write a novel or no one is going to read all this…

First (or should I say third), my baggage centers around the fact that I had a lover that for over ten years who cheated on me thousands of times. Yes, thousands. His therapist estimated three thousand. Now that is a busy man!

Not that we were ever a “Leave it to Beaver,” gay couple. We played with others (together). Once in awhile, we gave each other “permission” to play separately. These were our particular rules. As a very young gay man I wanted a totally and completely monogamous relationship, which would include a dog, cat and white picket fence. As I grew older, I saw there was nothing wrong with wanting other men, or even having sex with them. But I only wanted to include other men under very specific situations and not have what I think of as a “classic” open relationship. I had friends who could have sex with whoever they wanted, and that is not what I wanted. I saw too many breakups as the partners found a playmate they wound up liking more than their spouse. Again, all I can go my by are my perceptions of what I was seeing around me. I know there are many exceptions!

I think the most important thing is that the people in a relationship agree to an arrangement and stick to it. It can change, but all people involved must agree to the changes. That is not what happened.

So when I use the word “cheated,” it is because he didn’t follow the rules. At all. Never did. Because when I finally reluctantly just asked if he wanted an open relationship he assured me over and over and over and over again that he didn't want an open relationship. I finally came to see that in our particular situation, he wanted me faithful and he wanted to play all he wanted... What was good for the goose was not good for the gander… And then he started playing unsafely and got HIV and through some miracle, I am still neg 6 years later...

It was devastating to my ego and more... I've grown a lot since, but I still have a long way to go...

So I finally dumped him and a while later got a new lover... And my MAJOR BAGGAGE was that I did not want an open relationship!!!

But I wasn't the Cinderella Man anymore... I wasn't that innocent boy who wanted to marry ONE man and live in a castle forever... I had come to realize that I occasionally wanted to be with men besides my lover...

But the last time I had allowed my relationship to be somewhat "open" or allowed myself to be in a relationship where we had three (or more) ways or gave any kind of permission to play with others, the relationship devolved into something where my partner cheated thousands of times and put my life in danger...

Scary…

My newer partner, “R,” who I have been with for 4.5 years now is a wonderful man and in most ways, far superior to my first lover.

However, there are several ways we are not all that compatible. I have a far higher sex drive for instance and it runs the gamut of interests. He is pretty vanilla. He insists he isn’t so I give him French Vanilla or maybe chocolate-ship. He never wants to bottom. He prefers the lights out. So many things…

My silly and immature out-look on being poly-fi is that we could find a husband that was more sexual for me, and more into Dr Who for him. Yes, I know it is far more complicated than that and I am over simplify to the nth degree. But it took growing for me to see that and I am growing every day…

I began to see that having a more open relationship would have many benefits. Not only could I find men to scratch my itch which “R” was not overly willing to scratch… BUT I saw that it certainly DID NOT mean that I loved “R” any less when I wanted to fuck or get kinky or just plain have a nice afternoon with someone beside him.

HOLY SHIT, it really did (at times) seem to have nothing to do with him… And at the same time, amplified my love for him!!!!

I was at a camp one day hanging out a bit with a man I played with a long time ago and “R” was out of town and it got to the point where it was hard to keep my hands off this guy. I felt so guilty! And yet I saw that if I DID play with this man that it wouldn’t mean I loved “R” any less. It would have been a really nice play time…a nice connection with another human being. He and I would have been happy and again, it wouldn’t mean I loved “R” any less…

But OOOOOOOOOOOOOOO this was scary territory!

First, allowing things like that to happen would be that it was okay for “R” to play as well! Sound familiar? This would be what my ex had done to me!!!! I wanted to play but I didn’t want “R” to play! Now again, don’t attack me! I know what is going on and I am learning and trying to work through this!

This is soooooo long…is anyone still with me?

The difference between me and my ex is that my ex just completely and totally wanted control. It was all ABOUT control. Controlling me, controlling everything and everyone around him. He had this “King of the Mountain” mentality. Everyone else was just slaves or something…

You could say that it is control for me as well, but it is totally fear based.

As I have said above, it is MY experience that what I have seen with friends and acquaintances is the following… Open your relationship and it is doomed. That is what I have seen! Don’t attack me! That is what I have seen!

It is totally common for people to constantly looking (if they are aware of it or not) for the next lover. We do NOT all do this! Not at all! But it is very very common. My lover is quite handsome enough or rich enough or whatever… Now when sex is allowed outside the relationship, in increases the chances that someone will find that new lover. Sure, they can find one without sex! I know that! But sex is a powerful thing. And it OFTEN comes with emotion. And you find a fuck-bud that you really really like and suddenly one leaves their lover for a better spouse. Then one notices, after the glitter fades, that they too fart and leave their socks all over the house and don’t do their share of the dishes… So we look for the next lover…

How often does one get an emotional attachment with a fuck-buddy or play-mate? It happens all the G-damn time!

How do you play outside the relationship without forming to deep an attachment?? Or in my case, how do I get over the blinding fear that if I allow “R” to play as well, that HE won’t find someone new? He is even more emotional than I am (if that is fucking possible). He gets just as emotionally attached to things and places and people as I do…

How do I get over the fear that “R” won’t do what my ex did?

I am seeing more and more the advantages of opening our relationship slowly, one step at a time… But I am afraid. I admit it!

This last week we took a big huge step…

I have been talking to “R” about how much I wanted to have sex with the guy I told you about above… And a few others. It hurt him so I didn’t pursue anything… And then it happened again. Something happened that opened his eyes.

We went to this big week long camping festival and got to know this guy better that we have been attracted to for a few years. “R,” the cute shy little thing got the nerve to flirt with him like crazy. I was so proud of him. He was still fairly vanilla but now there were at least a few nuts sprinkled here and there! (pun intended) It looked like an amazing and fabulous three-way was in the wings…

…when this guy made it clear (politely) that he wanted “R” but not me. Totally. I have had plenty of examples of where I have had three ways in my life and knew that the guy really only wanted one partner but was willing to do both to get at the one. This had never caused me trouble because if I was the one the guy wanted, I gave my lover plenty of attention so he wouldn’t feel left out and visa versa. But this cowboy only wanted “R.”

And suddenly to my surprise, I told “R” to go for him… My heart was pounding and I was scared and a tad jealous, but what was predominantly happening was that I wanted “R” to experience this man! I didn’t want “R” to miss out on something that I knew he would really enjoy…

My baggage reared up now and then, but I somehow managed to knock it down and go with the idea that I was doing the right thing…

Did I use the word “jealous?” Yes, I did! I hear all the time that couple have NO jealousy and I just need to cast mine off. That jealousy is silly. Well, hell! Jealousy is a very basic emotion! It is totally normal! It is instinctual! Dogs and cats and even fish in one’s aquarium feel jealousy!!! How in the blue blazing f*ck do I “just” cast off jealousy? Especially in my case???

I have the fear that “R” could wind up doing what my ex did to us, and on top of that, I have my “worth issues.” I don’t think I am even half as sexy as “R” (and he feels the same way about me). And shit, on top of that, I think the guy is hot. I want him as well!

How do I cast off jealousy and not worry about “R” playing with this man?

But I did. There was some fear, oh yes!!!

But there were other things happening.

I was happy for “R.” I was happy that he was getting to do something fun and sexy and exciting! Fuck! I have tons and tons of experiences and he has only had a few… He came out way late in life… I even got turned on thinking about them getting it on… I was scared… But more, I was in love with “R” even more. I was pretty fucking sure that “R” wouldn’t do what my ex did. That this was the real thing. That I was giving him “permission” and he wasn’t going to abuse it…

He said to me… “I want him! I don’t know why, but I do, and I feel bad about it! I am sooooooooooooo sorry!”

And this was a good thing! Because that is what I’d been trying to tell “R” for several years. It was normal!

““R,” do you love me any less?”

“No, of course not!”

And when I want someone besides “R” I don’t love him any less!

“R” didn’t understand when I wanted someone besides him. He needed it to happen to him. NOW he sees that wanting someone else doesn’t mean he loves me less. As a matter of fact, the love making has been much better the last few days!!!!

And this guy was so perfect. He lives in England for God’s sake. He leaves in two weeks. He has a lover that he is very dedicated to. What a perfect man! You know, a baby step and a great leap at the same time? We are all learning a whole bunch and THIS guy is safe. “R” isn’t going to leave me for him!

So I sent him off, my heart in my throat, and told him to have fun. They didn’t do much, “R’s” guilt reared up and he couldn’t. They just made out and “R” had a good time (even though he felt guilty about it). We cuddled and he said that was all he was going to do and I assured him he could have done more… He assured ME that nothing more was going to happen…

But then it did.

Which fed into my fears! They went off to do something the next night and jacked off together… But FUCK I told him it was okay and it was. It was sexy! Thinking of him out in the woods jacking off with this total hottie! But he’d said they weren’t going to do anything… (I hope I am not entering into the realm of “too much information,” but I think the info is relevant.)

Is this all totally stupid? And I making any sense at all? Am I being totally immature and a silly school girl?

And if “R” felt guilty about it and yet… It was okay. There was the small amount of jealousy I felt, I would have loved to at least watched! LOL! **blush**

But “R” had learned another lesson… It was okay to “want” someone else and it didn’t mean he loved me any less. He saw how powerful sexual desire was. He saw how hard it was for me not to “slip” in the past and that what I’d wanted to do was normal. When I wanted to be with that man I told you about way way at the top of this huge long novel was “normal.” And “R” had been given permission. I told him the night we cuddled that it would have been alright to do more than he did…

Okay… TONIGHT…

“R” and this guy have a date tonight…

They are going to go off for the evening and do just about whatever they want to do… More than jack off anyway… All I asked was that “R” not let the guy fuck him since “R” won’t let ME fuck him (except for maybe about once a year) and I just don’t think that would be fair! OH! And they must play safe…

And thank GOD I will be spending the evening with “R’s” and my very very good friend whom we have sex with. I won’t be sitting alone at home, I won’t have to dwell on it, fall into fear, etc. “W” and I can have dinner and fuck and I won’t be all alone…

So even this “date” is perfect. Another small step and yet, a great leap…

So what is the point of all this?

1) How do you just “cast” aside jealousy? It is one of out most basic emotions? How do I cast off 100-thousand years of instinct?

2) How do I not worry that “R” won’t do to me what my ex did? How do I not “go there?”

3) How do people open their relationships, poly or otherwise, and make SURE that it does not endanger their primary relationship?

4) How do I get over my fears?

5) Am I an idiot for having my ego hurt that the cowboy doesn’t want me as well?

And “R” really is a darling! He is still trying to convince cowboy to have a three-way with us. But I think it is a good idea that they play together without me, at least first. If I get a crack at him I won’t mind! LOL! **blush** And I don’t have to be by myself. “W” will be with me.

SHIT! It would be easier to be Spock or Data here…. No emotion. But we are emotional beings, aren’t we?

Maybe I just needed to ramble?

I don’t want us to fuck up our relationship… I want to enhance it?

Any advise at all out there?

Too be continued...

Cross-posted to: gay_poly, polyamory, smartsex and compersion

Hey There...It's Been Awhile...

2005-01-29T16:03:54Z

My husband, R, and I are looking for a spouse... This is not an add.

We have a friend that we care for very much and who cares a lot for us. We are also intimate with him sexually. The relationship has taught all three of us a lot. R and I wish this could be permanent but alas, it can't be.

He knows we wants something permanent and he has expressed that he is sorry that he cannot offer more. I have reminded him that we are still looking for something permanent and we all hope that we will still be able to be friends when R and I start dating...

Now once again I need to ask, how the hell do you find a third? They are quite easy to find for the evening or an hour or two, but that is not what we are looking for. We want something that could turn poly-fi. The gay papers in our city are a total joke, advertising in them would be useless. Weeks go by with a single add about some guy over 60 who is into feet. I cannot even imagine the consequences of advertising there...

The whole idea of advertising for a man/spouse/boyfriend (pick a word-I am new at these ideas) is weird to R, but for goodness sakes, we are looking for something a little unusual. There are thousands of poly people out there, but how many wear T-shirts? The bars aren't the answer, any more than when one is single. It can work, but that is the exception rather than the rule (I knew a couple who were together 20 years and they met in a bath house).

I don't think there is anything wrong with using the computer age to help us find someone. Surely it eliminates a hell of a lot of bad dates and terribly wrong situations...

Where the hell does one advertise? I know I have heard about a wonderful service online, but I can't find it...

HELP!!!!!!!!!!
Thanks,
"B"

HHHEEEEELLLLLPPPPPPP!!!!!!

2004-11-15T21:09:09Z

DISCLAIMER / PLEASE NOTE! For me, polyamory is fidelity. I am NOT judging the different definitions of polyamory... I have pissed people off in these communities before (and can only assume that they have baggage too, most especially the baggage of being judged). I do NOT mean to. I know that for me, that when the time is finally right, the poly relationship I want will be a closed fidelitous (sp?) relationship. That does NOT mean that one of cannot occasionally do something. I am adult enough know that if it is hard to find a man who finds both my lover and I sexy. Can you imagine finding a man that would find all three of us sexy??? And a three way can be daunting to people. What if he found out that guy he wanted came with THREE men!

I know this is stupid.

Please don't lecture me. Be kind...

I am new to this poly-thing, despite the fact that it is something that I have wanted for more years than I know.. My partner, R, didn't want it! (not initially). But as he began to see how much I loved him and that loving someone else did not mean I loved him less...and after four years, he has warmed up to the idea...

Anyway, I almost cheated on my man one night. I met W at a bonfire when my man was out-of-town and before I knew what was happening, we were making out like two teenagers. I am SURE there were people thinking, "Oh, for God's sake, get a room." I don't know what came over me. It was very powerful! We didn't f*ck or anything. It was close. I would like to think I would have done the right thing even if it hadn't been so damned cold.

So I tell R and he deals with it pretty well, and W comes over one night to meet him and before I knew it, we were all upstairs. It was amazing. It was some of the best sex I have ever ever ever had, and R agreed.

So we started to see him more and more and we really like him. A lot. So much that we (I) wondered if we needed to hit the breaks.

Because first of all (and this is totally against my beliefs) we've helped HIM cheat. He is married and his man doesn't know what is going on. But W gives us mixed messages and we feel he is coming to feel the way we do...

I've kept myself from falling in-love with W somehow, and R is being far more level headed than I thought he could. Anyway, I finally talked to him quite a bit about my "guilt" for helping him cheat and he told me that it isn't my problem, it is something he needs to figure out and work through and decide about. That he is an adult. Note: He CANNOT tell his husband. And at this point, he seems to want to stay with the man.

Anyway, all this is really to say this...

To my shock, R got so okay with our "relationship" with W that when R went out of town for a weekend, he told me that W and I could play on our own. I was nervous about it, but excited to. I was so thrilled with the level of trust that I have developed with R that he could make the offer... I haven't been alone sexually with another man in four years. R is VERY vanilla and W likes it all and well... I went for it and it was f*cking amazing!

What's even better is that when the 3-ways continued, the sex was even better! I was worried that it wouldn't be, but that is not the case...

OKAY! Seruiyskt... It is way past time for R to get his chance with W alone. One night I was okay with it, but it didn't happen. Another time I was NOT okay with it and I don't know why!!!! I panicked (I haven't mentioned that my first husband of 10 year cheated on me over 2 thousand times, have I?). R was a tiny bit upset with me, but not because of the sex. He wasn't even to upset that I panicked. He was upset because I "needed" to be in somewhat control of when he plays the first time.

Is that bad?????? I mean, this is a HUGE step for me! R was in control of when I played alone.

Please no lectures about what is good for the gander is good for the other gander, please?

This is what I have always wanted, but I am scared to. I admit it! If I am ever going to have two husbands, and I want to be able to make love to either of them, together or separately, then I have to let R do this. I mean, let's be real, I have known of NO multi-partner relationships that have worked when all the partners had to be there or sex was not allowed!

I can't be afraid of R and W being together without me!

Sometimes when I think about it, it makes me glow!! I know what I wanted R to learn. I know that not only can I love more than one man, and it doesn't threaten R. I KNOW also that R can love more than one man and it doesn't threaten me! I KNOW THAT!

Sometimes when I think about it I get so turned on so much I can't get up and leave my desk....

But sometimes I panic! I have all this damned baggage that I am trying to heal from and I get scared. I know of at least one three-way where my buddy was terribly in love with two men and was the cause of them all becoming lovers. His primary partner said he was scared. My buddy was able to assure him. It was total bliss...

....and suddenly his first lover and new lover left him!

I am not perfect! I can be a bitch and an asshole! I am human.

What if they leave me?

And what is really really silly is that this probably won't happen because W has not intention of leaving his lover at this time. And would I want him to? If W could cheat on his lover, he could cheat on us. If W could leave his lover for us, he could leave us for someone else...

What I really want to do is this.

W has said not to worry about his cheating. That is for HIM to worry about. That he cares and even loves us (as a friend). He is getting to be close with two good friends and express it sexually.

I am getting "practice" on the fidelitous (sp?) poly relationship I someday want to be in... If I can be okay with W and R being together, then I can be ready for the real thing one day.

I've come a long way here. I can only go one step at a time.

I really feel I would be a totally different person if it weren't for the tremendous damage my ten year relationship did to me, emotionally, spiritually, sexually...

But I know I am hard-wired to be poly. I need to get back to the place I was where a poly relationship was totally possible. I can do this only one step at a time...

Cross posted to gay_poly

http://www.livejournal.com/community/gay_poly/3261.html

and polyamory

Well, I Screwed Up In My Last Post and Fixed It So No One Could Commet!

2004-09-07T22:24:23Z

Hello! It's Been Awhile Since I Have Posted...

...and the last time I posted, I got some wonderful information...

(I haven't posted here before)

I have been fascinated with the idea of polyamory since I was a little kid and had was too naive to know what I was fascinated with. When we played house, I wanted more than one spouse! LOL!

I am in a relationship and am interested in having a fidelitous polyamorus relationship. We know several LONG term three and four partner relationships and think it is a damn fine idea! When he and I met, he was pretty upset about the idea of polyamory, but he had only just come out. He'd never had a relationship with ONE man, let alone more than one. In the three and a half years we've been together, he has come to not only understand, but is attracted to the idea now.

But how in the world does one get INTO a poly relationship? It might be different in NYC or SFO or Atlanta or something, but KC tends to be a bit ... vanilla? That isn't even close to the right word, but even though I live in a large city with millions of people, there just aren't any support groups or clubs or whatever.

My spouse said he HATES the idea of "advertising," and when is is meant to be, it will be. But goodness! How would you even start? I am not crazy about placing an ad either, and when I have done things like put my profile in Friendster and then scanned profiles within a hundred miles of KC, there was NOTHING for a gay man/men. I've heard of PolyMatchmaker, and that just seems a little weird to me also...

It goes right back to the same difficulty as finding one partner when you are single! It is bad enough for straights, but gay men can meet gay men in ... BARS! And finding love in a bar is NEVER easy!

Any advise at all out there?

Hello! It's Been Awhile Since I Have Posted in a Poly Community...

2004-09-07T21:21:07Z

...and the last time I posted, I got some wonderful information...

(I haven't posted here before)

I have been fascinated with the idea of polyamory since I was a little kid and had was too naive to know what I was fascinated with. When we played house, I wanted more than one spouse! LOL!

I am in a relationship and am interested in having a fidelitous polyamorus relationship. We know several LONG term three and four partner relationships and think it is a damn fine idea! When he and I met, he was pretty upset about the idea of polyamory, but he had only just come out. He'd never had a relationship with ONE man, let alone more than one. In the three and a half years we've been together, he has come to not only understand, but is attracted to the idea now.

But how in the world does one get INTO a poly relationship? It might be different in NYC or SFO or Atlanta or something, but KC tends to be a bit ... vanilla? That isn't even close to the right word, but even though I live in a large city with millions of people, there just aren't any support groups or clubs or whatever.

My spouse said he HATES the idea of "advertising," and when is is meant to be, it will be. But goodness! How would you even start? I am not crazy about placing an ad either, and when I have done things like put my profile in Friendster and then scanned profiles within a hundred miles of KC, there was NOTHING for a gay man/men. I've heard of PolyMatchmaker, and that just seems a little weird to me also...

It goes right back to the same difficulty as finding one partner when you are single! It is bad enough for straights, but gay men can meet gay men in ... BARS! And finding love in a bar is NEVER easy!

Any advise at all out there?

More Thanks (I will be posting more too!!!)

2004-01-15T15:08:50Z

Special thank to those people in the Poly Communities who have responded to my posts...

polyamory has given me some wonderful info first HERE and then HERE. Thanks to all of you!

I also got some nice thoughts from the polyfi Community right HERE!

What excellent communities! I don't feel so alone anymore!

poly_bear @ 2004-01-15T08:17:00

2004-01-15T14:19:17Z

Special thanks to digression for providing me with two wonderful icons!!!

When I Cross Posted at Another Community...

2004-01-14T20:03:50Z

Yesterday (see here) I made my first post under this LJ Name and got a wonderful overwhelming response. Most of it was very supportive and I thank you all... It is easier to say that than go to each person and thank them for their support. I hope that is okay because I would basically be copying and pasting the same response to almost all of them.

Talking about these subjects is very very interesting because there are SO many permutations of words like polyamory, fidelity, open relationship, and more...

I mentioned I wanted polyfidelity. Because some time back when I posted something under my other LJ Name, quite a few people got bent out of shape with I said I wanted a closed polyamorus relationship and I was told the word I SHOULD be using is polyfidelity. Is that not an accurate word either??

I DO understand that fidelity means following the "contract," it does not mean monogamy. You can be faithful to your partners and still be loving or sexual (or both) with someone else AS LONG AS that is a part of the agreement.

What I have so much trouble with is definitions of words so I can say what I want to say without offending anyone (hence my comment that some people have chips on their shoulders, and I am sure there is a good reason for those chips).

So what do I say? I can't say monogamous... Mono means One, meaning being in a relationship with only One person. What words to I politically correctly use to mean a close polyamorus relationship without using that long string every time I want to refer to what I am personally looking for?

Peace and Blessings.

An Introduction

2004-01-13T22:04:41Z

I am a gay man in a relationship with another gay man. We live in the Midwest. And I have come to realize of the years that I am polyamorus.

Now an explanation of what I mean my polyamory is due. People feel very different about this subject and it can be very controversial.

What I am would be looking for is a third partner to my relationship. A gay man who would want to be with both me and my husband. I do not want a primary relationship and then a secondary partner. I do NOT want an open relationship. I don't want a boyfriend on the side (and I don't want my partner having one). I don't want a series of one or two night stands. I am not interested in 3-ways or more-ways, unless of course they are permanent.

I WANT fidelity!

I've been learning a lot about polyamory and I know what interests me and what doesn't. I've pissed some people off by telling them what I am NOT interested in, been told I'm close minded and insensitive because I don't want what they want. I think they have a chip on their shoulder.

In one unusual way or another, since I was little I wanted more than one spouse. When I got older and read books with extended families like Robert Heinlein's "Stranger in a Strange Land" or Joan D Vinge's "The Outcasts of Heaven's Belt" or sorta even "Another Roadside Attraction," by Tom Robbins, a note was touched inside of me and I knew that was what I wanted...

Let's talk. Let's chat. Let's discuss. Let's respect each other's opinions... Let's ... date?

We want love and support and a relationship, not one night stands...we want an extended lover relationship with a third man. We know of poly fidelitous relationships that have lasted for over a decade. It can work!

This was crossposted (and lots of comments) over at polyamory...